The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

lostcoyote

with all due respect, sd, what you are saying here can also be directly reflected back towards yourself. you don't seem to value what other people have to say when they do not share your own beliefs and values. your own mind is made up on the matter and there is really no chance to even have a discussion when your mind is closed.

That's not true. I very much value your commitment to rescuing, and working with difficult dogs. Honestly, I do. I haven't dealt with some of the types of dogs you have dealt with, as in my position in my family rescue dogs were not an option, but I have worked with non-rescue dogs that had lots of problems, I have worked at a boarding kennel that involved all types of dogs - rescues, behaviour issues, SA, fear aggression, territorial aggression, problems with certain body parts being touched, lack of manners, dogs that learned how to intimidate other dogs, dogs with anxiety problems that DID bite, etc. I didn't live with them, but I worked quite hands-on and intimately with them. And these dogs ranged from St. Bernards to Pitbulls and mixes, to GSD's, to Giant Schnauzers, to Dalmatians (talk about a breed that can have a mind of its own), to Boxers, Standard Poodles, Rotties, Huskies, all types of spaniels and collies, all types of little dogs, and Retrievers, and mutts. You name it. And in this boarding kennel, dogs WERE interacting with each other in the play area, so there WAS interdog dynamic present.

We can value something that you do, and still not feel that any of those dogs would have needed to be Alpha rolled to achieve the same result in the end. I'm not sure why this is turning into a contest of "who has worked with the worst type of dog". It doesn't need to come to that. Many of us have worked around difficult dogs, and many of us have had success with non-rolling methods. I think that in itself is what is important, not trying to see who is the "top dog" by having worked with the worst type of animal. No, I haven't worked with an animal from death's door, but I can promise you that if I did, I still wouldn't alpha roll it. 

Moderator speaking, 

Folks...here is a challenge for you all, 

speak TO THE TOPIC and refrain from picking apart posts based on who is posting. I challenge everyone here, posting on this topic...to do that. Anyone care to give it a try...

reposting the topic..

"The Alpha Roll--Purpose And Effectiveness"

spiritdogs

All you have to do is read the literature and have a heart.

As regards reading the literature, there is literature that will agree with any viewpoint you or I care to put forth. Some literature supports that the alpha roll is highly effective and has a purpose in dealing with problem dogs and there's literature that supports that it's just "bullying", has no purpose and is ineffective. So it really just depends on who you choose to believe. And each of us is going to choose the literature that supports whatever it is we already believe!

Accusing those who would use an alpha roll of not having a heart doesn't strengthen your position.  

even Ed of Leerburg, who is rather brutal in his approach to dogs, and has extensive experience with lots of aggressive messed up dogs doesn't recommend using alpha rolls to rehabilitate adult dogs or establish leadership over puppies.

I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that holding a child at arms length or enfolded in a tight hug to stop them hurting you or themselves or others would be different to holding the child against the wall.... and which does the DOG perceive when he is rolled?  The hug or the wall?  And how do we KNOW?  And as there is always the potential for the dog to perceive it as a form of violence.... say, a ritualistic threat of violence rather than actual violence..... then where is the justification?  The end does not justify the means.  Just because you can do it with no adverse effects doesn't automatically mean you should.  I think I understand where spiritdogs is coming from... there is no accusation that anyone here does not have a heart... we all love dogs here and none of us wish harm on them... so therefore we can all empathise and see the great potential for harm in this technique.  Just that potential, alone, is enough to steer me away from it.

"First do no harm."

mudpuppy

even Ed of Leerburg, who is rather brutal in his approach to dogs, and has extensive experience with lots of aggressive messed up dogs doesn't recommend using alpha rolls to rehabilitate adult dogs or establish leadership over puppies.

What???

You are taking good ole Ed's side all of a sudden when it comes to pinning an animal......interesting....I could have sworn you hated that guy....

 Oh, just for everybody' information, I have plenty heart when it comes to animals....that is why I am prepared to do just about anything to save an animal instead of shipping the dog to be put down when things get a little hairy.....

I think if you'd all like to discuss who has more of a heart when it comes to dogs, it might be better done via PM.  Certainly not here, when the subject is Alpha Roll - Purpose & Effectiveness.  

I find Ed fascinating, I've read everything on his site and watched some of his DVDs. Don't agree with most of what he says, but boy is it interesting stuff. I was just citing someone who would happily use alpha-rolls if he thought they worked. 

I would be interested in seeing some of this literature that fouriscompany claims exists that demonstrates the alpha roll is effective in rehabing problem dogs. I'm not aware of any?

FourIsCompany

As regards reading the literature, there is literature that will agree with any viewpoint you or I care to put forth. Some literature supports that the alpha roll is highly effective and has a purpose in dealing with problem dogs and there's literature that supports that it's just "bullying", has no purpose and is ineffective.

Thats what has been missing from this thread, the authoritative references from both sides.

snownose

mudpuppy

even Ed of Leerburg, who is rather brutal in his approach to dogs, and has extensive experience with lots of aggressive messed up dogs doesn't recommend using alpha rolls to rehabilitate adult dogs or establish leadership over puppies.

What???

You are taking good ole Ed's side all of a sudden when it comes to pinning an animal......interesting....I could have sworn you hated that guy....

Umm, so if you "like" someone it means you agree with EVERYTHING they say and if you dislike them you disagree with everything they say?  Sorry, I know that was a bit OT but it just made me realise WHY some of the CM threads could get so heated.... and possibly this one as well?  Just a thought for us all to bear in mind...

snownose

Oh, just for everybody' information, I have plenty heart when it comes to animals....that is why I am prepared to do just about anything to save an animal instead of shipping the dog to be put down when things get a little hairy.....

That's what Ed says, too, when he talks about stringing up an aggressive dog up.  Me, I draw the euthanasia line sooner, but what he says about working with aggressive dogs rings true to me from my own experience with an aggressive dog.  

Like mudpuppy, I find him fascinating. I don't agree with all his opinions, techniques, etc, but some of his stuff is definitely worth reading.

 This is sort of why I say that a dog that *can* be AR-ed can be worked with in other methods, and a dog that can't be worked with without serious force is not a safe dog to AR. I don't think ARing a safe dog is a crime, or necessarily harmful.  I think there is a potential for harm if the handler misreads the dog, but no it isn't intrinsically a bad thing. The dog could be harmed if it is a soft dog, and the handler could be harmed if the dog isn't safe to AR. This is also why I'm more open to rolling/pinning/gentling a pup.You remove one half on the danger, so the odds are better that it'll work out.

I have used force on a dog that would not have been safe to AR. I am not opposed to force or violence when in the context of everything else it seems the only way to save a dog.  While I could never do what Ed of Leerburg does, choking out a dog that wants a piece of you, I can't say he's wrong for saving those lives. I don't know. It's a hard call to make. Maybe some day I'll have a firm opinion, but I don't right now. If I had been willing to use that level of force, there is a good chance Ivan would be sleeping a few feet away from me, instead of sitting as a box of ashes in the garage.

( Here is Ed talking about human aggressive dogs - http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm Yes, its brutal. No, I don't advocate nor have I done it. I chose doggy death.  And don't think that because of my words I take the loss of Ivan lightly. I miss him, I loved him, and I accept responsibility for the fact that he's dead. I believe it was the correct thing to do, but it is a heavy and sad responsibility to have)  

I think at this point in time I have to point out something that has me and several other members scratching our heads.

Members who do not apply any pinning/gentling/alpha rolling are always talking about retaliation by their dogs, or rescues or even dogs they would be in contact with......oddly enough, I and several other members who believe in above mentioned method have no fear of our own dogs or dogs we integrate into our packs....I don't think I have ever seen it mentioned here.

Why is that?

That's not quite true.  I do not alpha roll and I'm certain that SD doesn't either.  And I would bet money, when it comes to our own dogs, and in my case, the fosters, we have NO fear of retaliation.  We just don't find it necessary or useful.

Members who do not apply any pinning/gentling/alpha rolling are always talking about retaliation by their dogs, or rescues or even dogs they would be in contact with......oddly enough, I and several other members who believe in above mentioned method have no fear of our own dogs or dogs we integrate into our packs....I don't think I have ever seen it mentioned here.

Why is that?

who are these people?  the only dog I've owned that "retaliated" did so in response to being alpha-rolled. Once we quit doing that, the dog came around quickly.

If you spend a lot of time reading bite-reports, you notice that most of them occur immediately after or during some kind of physical punishment of the dog, or attempting to physically move the dog, or attempting to physically remove objects from the dog.

I never had any fear of retaliation from Conrad, and I don't from Marlowe even if I were to try to alpha-roll him--the reasons I choose to no longer use this method with my own dogs doesn't have anything to do with getting hurt by them. But that's not to say that with some other dog the possibility is not there. A dog with no bite inhibition who has a history of human aggression is a dog that I'd personally be afraid would retaliate. All dogs have the equipment to bite, and since I don't personally know every dog that is currently alive on the planet, I think it's fairly safe to caution people that their dog may retaliate if they try this. And given the physical position you get in to when you do it, the retaliation has a high likelihood at being aimed at your face.