The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

I just never felt like I would be safe trying it when I needed too which was in the beginning. 

I agree with you, I don't think it ruins their spirit or anything like that.  But, I do think if the dog is aggresive and not going to submit it can be really dangerous.

I'm curious--have you ever done it to Sally?? 

 No, but I've never really had a reason to.  I would not have done it to Jack if I felt like I had a choice.

Sally has always been more willing to comply with basic commands than he has.  Our trainer says that when she watches Sally with us she can tell that she really wants to work with us and cares about doing a good job--whereas Jack seems to question us more. 

I guess it also comes down to how you would define "alpha roll?"  When she is laying down I will sometimes gently push her on her side (when that wasn't her original plan)  then scratch her belly as a reward for going over easily.  But that is not so much because I need her on her side or for reasons of "dominance" as it is for her to get used to accepting all kinds of handling--I'll also gently lay my head on her sometimes for the same reason.

I guess Sally's personality is different than Jack's too.  She is not what I would call a "soft" dog, but she takes a little longer than most dogs to trust, although once she trusts you she LOVES you.  My trainer says that she has one of the best personalities of any of the dogs she deals with--she says that she fells totally safe doing things like leaning her whole body over Sally while petting her that she would not do with many of her clients dogs.  I guess if I did feel the need to actually alpha roll Sally my concern would not be so much safety (I really don't see her lashing out), or breaking her spirit, but scaring her to the point that it damaged her trust in me.  

 I think a lot has to do with the emotion connected to the performance of the alpha roll - when I've heard it suggested it's MUCH more forceful than what you describe and the handler often takes a more aggressive role, rather than the matter of fact performance you discussed.  I too force my dogs to lay down sometimes for handling acclimation reasons (I even desensitize them to various other "training methods" just in case lol), but it's done in a very matter of fact, gentle way, not forceful and compliance is rewarded with paraise, petting, and sometimes a treat.

of course jack's a lab, so that may have a lot to do with his neutral reaction to it as well lol. 

I've done it- back in the old days you were "supposed" to regularly "alpha roll" all of your puppies. It's not really "hotly debated" is it?  pretty much every one agrees that in the canine world the "alpha roll" doesn't actually exist. It's meaningless to dogs. All they know is some weirdo human slammed them into the ground. And just gently holding your dog down on his side isn't a true "alpha roll": we were instructed to, very calmly, no emotion involved, to grab the puppy by the scruff of the neck, swing him up, and body-slam him into the ground, belly up, and hold him down by the neck. It was stupid and pointless, and if were really in need of "control" over a dog you'd be likely to emerge from the encounter needing stitches. And while it may not appear to "damage" a dog to be treated this way, I think back on my relationship with dogs raised in this way to dogs raised in more gentle ways, and yes, there is a big difference. Mental scars don't show unless you know what to look for.

The term "alpha roll" is so emotionally charged that I am even hesitant to use it.   But I have used the maneuver on all 4 of my dogs (probably 2-3 times per dog), when they were puppies and without emotion, aggression or anger of any kind. The reason I did it was basically to make them comply with a "settle". To settle them down when I wanted or needed them to. And none of them have ever shown any signs of being emotionally damaged from it.

I'm not going to go into the details here. But I would just lay them down on their side and calmly hold them with 2 hands until they sighed with resignation. It worked great. They settled quickly. 

I have never been in a situation where a dog was being aggressive and I personally would not alpha roll in that situation, but only for fear of my own safety; for fear of being bitten by an aggressive dog. What other people do in that situation is their choice, and I have no negative judgment about it, but I don't think I could do it as I'm not comfortable handling aggressive dogs. I don't think I could keep fear from becoming part of my energy and I think that's vital. I don't think alpha rolling damages the dog in any way. In fact, I believe that the proper application of the alpha roll has saved many aggressive dogs' lives.

And if any of my adult dogs needed to be restrained or settled for any reason, I would feel 100% confident placing them on their side and holding them until they resigned (if they fought). I can't imagine this scenario because they are so good and don't fight at the vet or anything, but if it was needed, I would do it without reservation. And I'm confident that they would comply.

ETA: Thanks for the reminder, mudpuppy. I have seen my dogs do it to each other. 

mudpuppy

I've done it- back in the old days you were "supposed" to regularly "alpha roll" all of your puppies. It's not really "hotly debated" is it?  pretty much every one agrees that in the canine world the "alpha roll" doesn't actually exist. It's meaningless to dogs. All they know is some weirdo human slammed them into the ground. And just gently holding your dog down on his side isn't a true "alpha roll": we were instructed to, very calmly, no emotion involved, to grab the puppy by the scruff of the neck, swing him up, and body-slam him into the ground, belly up, and hold him down by the neck. It was stupid and pointless, and if were really in need of "control" over a dog you'd be likely to emerge from the encounter needing stitches. And while it may not appear to "damage" a dog to be treated this way, I think back on my relationship with dogs raised in this way to dogs raised in more gentle ways, and yes, there is a big difference. Mental scars don't show unless you know what to look for.

I don't know who you associated with , but in all my years of being around dogs, ever since I was a kid...that would be 30 plus years, I have never heard anyone even mentioning to pick up a pup by the scruff, lift it up and body slamming the animal.....what I heard was that the trainer will pin the dog by pushing the animal over, and keeping the animal on it's side......none of what you describe makes any sense to me....try body slamming a GSD weighing 90 plus pounds....tja....

.:.

 I don't equate rolling and holding a dog down for a medical procedure with an alpha roll, and I suspect that dogs don't either.   Did my dog want to get her Elizabethan collar off during her recuperation from spay surgery?  Sure (*understatement*).  Did I sleep with her on a leash tethered to me to prevent it, and did I force her to wear it?  Yup - so much better than intestines spilling out onto my floor in the living room.  Did she have lasting effects?  Doubtful.  The alpha roll, as practiced by many uninformed dog owners and trainers over the years is, in my opinion, however, mostly just confusing to the dogs - I'm sure they wonder why their formerly nice human suddenly attacks (bet a few of those humans wondered why their obedient dog finally snapped, too).  I do think that some dogs stop the behavior they were doing immediately beforehand, since the punishment was so immediate in those cases, and severe enough, for that dog, to have that effect.  But, many dogs do not alter their behavior (which, in the past, might have subjected them to a harsher version of the roll).  I cannot even imagine a situation where someone would think they would need to do this to a puppy, let alone a full grown dog.  If disabled people in wheelchairs can train dogs, then why should it be so hard for someone who is able bodied to do it without physical manipulation of the animal?  Anyway, I do think that a dog with a stable temperament (plus hundreds of good experiences in life to counteract a few bad ones like this) is seldom permanently affected.  There are always exceptions, and dogs that are "one trial learners", who will be negatively affected, but since you never know which type you have, why chance it?  Medical treatment aside, I can't think of any good reason.  Also, when you get a puppy, if you hold and massage the pup and maybe do some TTouch, etc. and get the dog used to being manipulated and handled extensively as a wee one, even gently placed on their sides, back, standing on hind legs, picked up, they are usually fine with this stuff when they are older.

Not quite 5 years ago, in a pretty good sized town in West Virginia, I observed ONE training class while looking for a trainer for Thor and Sheba.  He did EXACTLY what mudpuppy has described with the alpha roll.  And he did it not because the pups were misbehaving, but  because that was part of showing them who was the BOSS.

Needless to say we didn't attend those classes.

I do agree that the rolling and holding for a medical procedure is a heck of a lot different, and your emotion really plays a role too.

 I never used Alpa Rolling it never was a method I subscribed to but I think the emotional piece is like Spirits explained; it would depend on how and how often.  If you alpha roll like mudpuppy described, oh boy of course you would have a dog develop fear.  It is the Monks who brought this useless method to the table and they later changed their approach and spoke of their changes and elimination of the method in their second book - it didn't work, and could be dangerous.

yes, I forgot to explain why and how one alpha-rolled: you didn't do it when the puppy misbehaved, you sort of did it routinely- clip the toenails, brush the coat, alpha-roll the puppy- as a maintenance procedure. To impress upon the dog while young that you were the boss. It came from the idea that a) all dogs were constantly scheming to "take over" the household, and b) that dogs won't obey you unless you are "dominant".  If you have the original edition of the Monks of New Skete they go into it in detail; they have since removed it from subsequent editions and expressed regret for suggesting it.

And why people confuse gently holding a dog on its side with an alpha roll, I don't know. They are NOT the same thing. The alpha roll came into being as a result of mis-interpretation of wolf behavioral studies.

luvmyswissy

It is the Monks who brought this useless method to the table and they later changed their approach and spoke of their changes and elimination of the method in their second book

Does anyone have the original instructions from the Monk's 1976 book?  My understanding is that the Monks recanted because of the alpha roll being misused.  I am wondering if Mudpuppy's program on instructing us how to do the alpha roll is the same as the Monk's intended. 

Certainly slamming, swinging, body-slamming and choking, putting the dog in danger ranks right up there with punching the dog in the face.  I have never seen this done and I don't approve of it. I think a big part of the drama and controversy surrounding this is due to the definition of the term. If, by "alpha roll" one means a violent, angry, body slamming and choking, causing physical danger to the dog, I don't know of anyone who approves of that. If, however one means a physical manipulation of the dog to bring it down, and hold it down, without emotional energy, I don't see anything wrong with it -- even if it IS to let the dog know who is boss. I think it's important that a dog knows who is the boss and we all have different ways of getting that across. If we don't, we very likely end up with a problem dog. NILIF is one way to let the dog know who is the boss. No big macho energy behind it, it's just a way to keep peace in the household.

I am the boss. I make the rules. If a person doesn't make the rules (no peeing, biting, etc) the dog will. 

spiritdogs

If disabled people in wheelchairs can train dogs, then why should it be so hard for someone who is able bodied to do it without physical manipulation of the animal?

It is not "so hard". It's not hard at all. I think it's a matter of perspective here. It's not as if people resort to this method because everything else is "so hard". It's because it is the preferred method to handle some situations by some people. And many people don't see a thing wrong with physical manipulation of an animal. I personally think it's a fine way to communicate with an animal. I physically manipulate my animals every day. I LIKE that part of our communications and I would almost guarantee that they do, too. They physically manipulate each other, too, and sometimes, they physically manipulate me. Ours is a very physical relationship.

My dog thinks the alpha roll is play.