The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

I don't have a copy personally but I did read the pre-revised-edition monks book and the technique that mudpuppy describes is exactly what is in the book. Take the dog by the scruff, lift up and over and roll the dog on to his back (not his side) and hold him there by the neck until they stop struggling. These are also the same guys who told you to find the correct level of correction for your dog by making the correction hard enough that the dog yelps, let's not forget.

I just.....even with the more "gentle" versions described.....why would you need to do that? I know why I used to do that and the reason I did it was that people told me to, not because my dogs were actually giving me any actual reason to do that. And there's no doubt about it, the scars are there in Conrad. When I'm in a certain emotional state, whether or not it even has anything to do with him, he is afraid of me. It makes me sad.  

houndlove

When I'm in a certain emotional state, whether or not it even has anything to do with him, he is afraid of me.

There's the key. It sounds like he associates your emotional state with something you did to him and that creates a fear of you. I don't know why he would fear you unless you were in an emotional state when you "rolled" him or punished him.

When I'm angry (which is rare), my dogs show no response except for curiosity, because I never touch them in anger.

As regards why I did it, that won't be accepted or understood here, I am certain, except by those who already understand it. So if you (and others) never feel the need or desire to roll your dogs, that's really up to you. I'm not trying to say that everyone should do it. It's just something I did and believe in.

I think putting a dog on his side for medical treatment or petting the belly is a lot different than what most people are thinking when the term alpha roll is used.  That's used in a completely different circumstance to get the dog to submit.  I'm not into using CM terminology or anything like that but it is a different energy, different desired result, different situation.

I'm just thinking it in this way, Jack didn't put up much of a fuss over being put on his side.  But, if in the circumstance the alpha roll is supposedly used you might have seen a different reaction.   The effectiveness depends on the dog and how willing/unwilling they are to be controlled in that way.  The reaction you get IMO depends on what type of dog you are dealing with. 

 I'm sorry but I do not see how anyone could "calmly" take their 90 lb. dog by the scruff, lift him up by his scruff, flip him over on his back and hold him by the neck until he stops struggling. The entire point of that is to show that you are scary and should be listened to for that very reason. And when you do that in order to "correct", again, that's not calm at all. Yes, I did it when I was angry. I was angry because my dog was not obeying me, which I had been told meant that he was trying to dominate me and thought he was better than me and I needed to disabuse him of that notion immediately. I'm not a robot any more than my dogs, and if someone tells me that when my dog doens't sit when told to sit he thinks he's better than me and I need to take him down a peg, that's going to trigger a "Oh no he didn't! I'll show him!" response in me.

 This argument is so much like the spanking one. Proponents of spanking say that you should spank calmly and without anger. But if your kid has done something that warrants a spanking, the entire point is that kid just made you angry. These gestures, to me, bring with them an automatic emotional state. Hitting makes my heart race, even just watching someone hitting someone else. Getting in to it with my dog triggers an emotional reaction.

 Now, just playing with the dog or relaxing and deciding you want to place the dog on his side (or if there's a medical reason) just for kicks, that can be done calmly and I still do that sometimes. DH loves to play "dominate the dog!" where he goes over to the dogs where they are laying and lays over them and coos all over them and pets them and they eat it up. Totally different situation from the dog disobeying you and you then tackling the dog in order to show him who's really boss. Gently placing a dog on his side is not an alpha roll. It's placing a dog on his side to get him out of danger, or calm him down, or perform a medical procedure.

 

the puppies I've seen alpha-rolled all reacted differently-- some struggled violently then lay quietly, some froze up in terror, some never stopped struggling. All were clearly in states of severe fear and many looked shell-shocked and very subdued for some time after the experience.

houndlove

The entire point of that is to show that you are scary and should be listened to for that very reason.

There is much in your post that I disagree with, but this makes it clear why people don't like this technique. Let me just say that I was never angry, and the point was NOT to show that I was scary. The last thing I want is for my dogs to be scared of me.

I never read about the "alpha-wolf roll-over" as discussed in the Monks' book. (Are they really the first ones to talk about the technique? No one before them ever used the alpha roll?) But did they want the dogs to be scared of them? I have looked it up and I can't even find what they said. But I have seen another modern-day "dog psychologist" use a similar technique and I'm convinced that it is not, in any way, about anger, pain, fear or other emotion.

I'm sorry you were told all that crap about your dog thinking he was better than you and stuff. That sounds very unfortunate and I can understand why you are so against it, but that's not at all where I am coming from. And maybe I shouldn't call what I did the "alpha roll". But since it's a "roll" and since it's about me being "alpha", it works for me to use that term. But it's NOT about anger, pain or fear.

houndlove

But if your kid has done something that warrants a spanking, the entire point is that kid just made you angry.

That's not how I understand it at all and I'm glad I wasn't involved in that discussion! The entire point would be to punish the child (using the OC definition). In other words, you don't spank a child because you're angry, you spank a child to lessen the chance of him repeating the offense in the future. 

snownose

try body slamming a GSD weighing 90 plus pounds....tja....

Watched it happen.  By a very tough female friend of mine.  Although I think the GSD in this case was closer to 120lbs.  Of course this is the friend of mine that humped her dog in the dog park. 

Back to topic:

I'm not a fan of the technique.  I think it is mis-used more than it is used.  I also think that when you're the leader, your dog will roll his or herself without you having to lay a finger on them.   I watch dogs roll themselves and I don't think I've ever seen one dog roll another.  So in my "pack" the technique isn't used, and has no place.

What the "trainer" I observed told his class was that if you follow his methods, exactly, while dogs are still pups and easily maniuplated in this way, when they ARE 90 lb adults, all they have to do is grap the scruff and the dog will roll himself.  So this training is supposed to prevent needing to do it with a full grown dog.

In using a true alpha roll (the kind where you lift the dog up in the air and slam him on to his back) as a correction, you are severely punishing the dog, and part of the punishment is not just physical pain, it's fear. So yes, you become very scary, and that's part of the dog learning to not do whatever they did to elicit the roll ever ever again. And maybe I'm just a seriously flawed individual, but I can not get in to a physical confrontation with anyone or anything without serious emotional responses on my part. I don't think I could "calmly" hit a child.  And whether or not my emotional state was one of anger, a dog interprates that action (and I'm talking about the real alpha roll) as "my human is about to kill me!" so fear is inevitably a part of that. Whether or not I'm actually trying to be scary, being lifted up and slammed to the ground is scary for a dog.

Punishments have side effects. That's one of the problems with using them a lot. You may lessen the behavior, but you may very well also do all sorts of unintended things like make the dog or your kid scared of you (or of the room it happened in, or of the behavior they were attempting but incorrectly attempting right before it happened), because you just used fear as well as physical pain as a punisher. No animal likes to feel fear, so avoiding that feeling of fear becomes part of the response to the punishment. It's why it works.

Anyway, the Monks of New Skete were the first people to really for real recommend and describe the alpha roll in dog training.  The real one. Not the new age version where you use your calm energy to gently place the dog on his side and pet him.

.:.

lostcoyote

seen dogs submit (perhaps what you call roll themselves??) and i have also seen one of my own dogs pin another one of my dogs a few months ago and then stand over the top of him in a dominant fashion. does that count? carla has also stated that she has seen it occur. does that count - or will people who have not seen it just assume that it never occurs?

Your description sometimes happens over here, espcially with dogs in a true pack setting and with new fosters.  The Danes put their big heavy heads on the dog's back neck and down the dog goes.  Not sure what I would accomplish if I mimic this behavior.  Dogs in a true pack are more effective in controlling the behavior of other dogs.

FourIsCompany

 I don't see anything wrong with it -- even if it IS to let the dog know who is boss. I think it's important that a dog knows who is the boss and we all have different ways of getting that across. If we don't, we very likely end up with a problem dog. NILIF is one way to let the dog know who is the boss. No big macho energy behind it, it's just a way to keep peace in the household.

Gotta disagree. I'm a touchy-feely person, so my relationship with my dogs always involves touch. I have no problems pushing Sasha down on her butt, poking her gently, whatever. None of it is done in a way that distresses her.

BUT.

I'm not showing her that I'm the boss when I handle her.  I can handle her precisely because she considers me the boss. As a way to earn respect, NILIF works because it is honest. I have the credit card and opposable thumbs. Alpha rolling a dog who has questions about the chain of command is very risky because when it comes time to throw down, a medium or large dog will triumph over a person. My mantra is that a dog who "needs" an alpha roll is dangerous to roll, and any dog that isn't dangerous to roll doesn't need one for the sake of leadership. 

IMO, handling a dog for medical or grooming reasons is not an alpha roll.  I define alpha roll as a technique used to enforce dominance/leadership/mental control. And I think that technique is pretty worthless.  If you're going to to physically intimidate a dog (which I don't advocate) then you are better off using Leerburg's methods.  He understands the concept of never picking a fight you can't win, and with an aggressive dog you better make darn sure you can win the battles you choose to engage in.

And don't get me started on spanking kids.   I can't wait until America catches up to Europe and gets the memo that hitting kids is not ok.

.:.

DPU

lostcoyote

seen dogs submit (perhaps what you call roll themselves??) and i have also seen one of my own dogs pin another one of my dogs a few months ago and then stand over the top of him in a dominant fashion. does that count? carla has also stated that she has seen it occur. does that count - or will people who have not seen it just assume that it never occurs?

Your description sometimes happens over here, espcially with dogs in a true pack setting and with new fosters.  The Danes put their big heavy heads on the dog's back neck and down the dog goes.  Not sure what I would accomplish if I mimic this behavior.  Dogs in a true pack are more effective in controlling the behavior of other dogs.

You have touched upon a key point, and that is the ritual of submission. Dogs voluntarily roll themselves. Even the "pins" that are done are more ritual than fact. The danes don't actually force the new dog down.  They strongly suggest it. I can get Sasha to roll over quite easily.  All I have to do is look at her a certain way. Or when I'm on the floor like an idiot doing dog talk with her, I can easily position myself is suggestive ways and down she goes.

Alpha rolling gets it backwards. We don't have alpha rolls.  We have submissive rolls, offered by the rolling dog.  Yes, sometimes done with physical suggestions from the other dog, but never actually forced in the way that many humans envision an alpha roll. 

Dog_ma

I'm not showing her that I'm the boss when I handle her. 

What are you doing, then? I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.