The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Sera_J

Moderator speaking,

The post topic is once again, the "Alpha Roll -- purpose and effectiveness"  and baiting one another and as Admin has said, personal attacks is going to cause this thread to be locked.

Please stick to the topic at hand and take anything personal OFF the forum. 

Baiting and personal attacks????

Where?

The way I see it, there are many opinions when it comes to this topic.......I might not agree with some posters, but, I like to read their opinions, no matter how far apart they are from my or any other poster's view......so, where have we gotten of topic?

snownose

You might not be sure of how an alpha roll is done, other than what you have read on this forum by not so accepting folks of said method....

Can I ask you, have you ever dealt with dogs other than dogs brought up in a decent environment....it's important for me to know, as it might be for other people who rescue......

I read about alpha rolls in the Monks of New Skete's book 21 years ago when I got my first GSD, and other places since then. I don't know why it would be important for you or anyone else to know my history with dogs, whether brought up in a decent environment or not, but I'll tell you anyway.

Sneaker, GSD, got from breeder in 1986 at 16 weeks old. Terrific dog, lived to 14-1/2 years old.

Cassidy, GSD, got from a breeder in 2000 at 20 weeks old. Loved her to bits, but she had issues, primarily severe leash reactivity and weak nerves. My crash course in dog training, she needed a LOT of work.

Dena, GSD, got from a breeder in 2004 at 9 weeks old. Pretty darned perfect dog, raised with NILIF and everything else I learned from dealing with Cassidy, from her first day home.

Keefer, GSD, got from a breeder in 2005 at 9 weeks old. A big goofy sweetheart with mega prey drive who can be stubborn and pushy, but also a pretty terrific dog. Also started training and NILIF from day one.

 But now we're off topic, yes?
 

Cassidys Mom

snownose

You might not be sure of how an alpha roll is done, other than what you have read on this forum by not so accepting folks of said method....

Can I ask you, have you ever dealt with dogs other than dogs brought up in a decent environment....it's important for me to know, as it might be for other people who rescue......

I read about alpha rolls in the Monks of New Skete's book 21 years ago when I got my first GSD, and other places since then. I don't know why it would be important for you or anyone else to know my history with dogs, whether brought up in a decent environment or not, but I'll tell you anyway.

Sneaker, GSD, got from breeder in 1986 at 16 weeks old. Terrific dog, lived to 14-1/2 years old.

Cassidy, GSD, got from a breeder in 2000 at 20 weeks old. Loved her to bits, but she had issues, primarily severe leash reactivity and weak nerves. My crash course in dog training, she needed a LOT of work.

Dena, GSD, got from a breeder in 2004 at 9 weeks old. Pretty darned perfect dog, raised with NILIF and everything else I learned from dealing with Cassidy, from her first day home.

Keefer, GSD, got from a breeder in 2005 at 9 weeks old. A big goofy sweetheart with mega prey drive who can be stubborn and pushy, but also a pretty terrific dog. Also started training and NILIF from day one.

 But now we're off topic, yes?
 

Ooops, off topic.....my appologies.....but, thank you for giving this valuable information.......you have no experience with rescues......

If all you wanted to know was if I'd ever had a rescue you could have just asked that question. My answer would be no, and I've never tried to pretend otherwise. 

 But what does that have to do with the question of whether alpha rolling is the same as "gentling"?
 

Kim_MacMillan

Easy Walks, I have to say I have never yet met a dog that found them aversive, and of course they in no way cause pain that has been identified anywhere as of yet. If it has, believe me I'll look into it.  And again, the intent is to control, yes, but not to inflict anything aversive at all. All a front-clip harness does is shift the dogs pulling ability by taking the dog off its center of balance and shifting the body to the side.

Then you should have seen Jack.  He completely hated it.  It was fit properly and done with a trainer's help, etc.  He was tense, obviously not comfortable, and finally just stopped moving forward altogether.  He just had this "Get it off!" look on his face (and it's not like he just doesn't like stuff on him--he wore his Halloween costume with pride).  This was after we had been unsuccessful with the GL (he had been accustomed to one as a young pup).  So, I finally just asked the trainer if we could try fitting him with a prong and he was great--relaxed, happy, etc.  When it comes to things like this I find it best to listen to the dog, and the dog told me quite clearly what he preferred.....  

I'll stop now, for fear of going even farther off topic. 

It has never been policy to point out, publicly, where a post has crossed the line unless we are editing out the post in question, which obviously everyone can see.  That's not about to change now.  If a member needs to be spoken to about a post of their own, that will happen privately, as has always been done.

Sera_J was simply repeating my warning.  Move on.  

snownose

Corvus, with all due respect......do you have any experience with any dogs that will not conform to your way of thinking.......rescues, dogs straight out of a shelter, or just in general dogs that have not had the pleasure of having a proper raising since puppyhood?

I started a whole thread about the puppy we had that both myself and my mother pinned and why we did it. He sure didn't conform to my way of thinking.

We also had a rescue that after 2 years of living in harmony within our household, abruptly decided she needed to kill my dog. I expect she did not have a proper raising since puppyhood. However, she was an adult when we got her and neither of us ever pinned or rolled her. I imagine it would have made the situation worse if we did.

Before both of them, we had a very dominant dog that someone else alpha rolled, or did something very similar. She was pretty intense about certain things, like motorbikes and gas men. We later discovered she was crazy intense about those things due to unpleasant things that had happened to her in relation to those things. I think any and all physical attempts to teach her anything failed dismally and actually made her behaviour worse.

Lastly, I have this wild hare, you know. He has taught me an awful lot about the flight or fight response. As have all the other wild animals I've had to handle, as have the calves and young cows I trained as a kid in high school. In my books, a dog that has not been properly raised and is aggressive falls into the same category as a wild animal. My rule of thumb for dealing with wild animals is to try not to provoke a flight or fight response. I hate having to deal with those! It always ends up being a worst case scenario thing and if I can avoid causing a flight or fight response, I most certainly will. If the response is likely to be fight, then I will avoid provoking it at any cost. There are ways to do what you need to do without putting the animal in a position where it snaps. I manage this with my hare every day, and he lives perpetually on the edge of a flight or fight response. Hares are like that. They have to be ready to flee at top speed at any moment. Knowing how hard it is to manage him, and being moderately successful at it, I find I have trouble imagining a dog that is as hard as he is. I'm afraid I can't imagine a dog that is so on edge that you can't tell when it's about to snap and avoid making it choose to snap at you or try to run. And that includes the dingoes and dingo crosses of dubious nature I've met. Try to roll or pin them and you will get bitten, no matter what energy you might be projecting.

I don't think this is a case where it's necessary for some dogs. I might not have the experience to back that up with, but I know wild animals and I know flight or fight responses. I know dogs well enough to know when I'm about to be bitten if I push any further. In all of that knowledge, I can't imagine a situation where a roll or pin would be useful with a dog that doesn't know how to behave or is showing aggression. Once they get to that point, I want to treat them like a wild animal until I've managed to tame it, and I don't consider forcing myself on an animal a particularly good way to tame it.

snownose

As to why Ron felt he needed to alpha roll several times hasn't been answered.

I already answered that.

Perhaps, if rescuiing dogs is so different, it needs its own thread.

FourIsCompany

For most of the positive proponents here on the board, I either know that your dogs have these issues OR I don't know anything about your dogs at all. That is suspicious to me.

Still catching up here, so sorry about this but.... Four, doe sit occur to you that MANY people on here, regardless of their style of training, has a dog with issues of some sort and that's the reason they came here in the 1st place?

What would you like to know about my dogs, past and present?   Here's a nice little nugget for you:  The dog that I taught using the most "old school" methods.... maybe not alpha rolling, but a lot of corrections and leadership stuff that was NOT positive is the one that has the most issues!! So yeah, here's ME looking at results for myself as well.  It goes both ways!

I don't believe that I've ever had a husky mix in my home.  But, yes, Snownose, I have rescued dogs hours from death.  And I've had fosters from closed down puppy mills.....dogs who lived in cages their entire lives.  But, this seems to have become a contest....who's rescued the worst dogs, and I think it's counter productive.  They type and condition of the dogs I've fostered doesn't make me any less or any more than anyone else.  And I still haven't used an alpha roll or a pin on any of them.  I personally don't believe that a dog that has had a tough life already needs to be physically bullied to be brought around.

snownose

Cassidys Mom

snownose

You might not be sure of how an alpha roll is done, other than what you have read on this forum by not so accepting folks of said method....

Can I ask you, have you ever dealt with dogs other than dogs brought up in a decent environment....it's important for me to know, as it might be for other people who rescue......

I read about alpha rolls in the Monks of New Skete's book 21 years ago when I got my first GSD, and other places since then. I don't know why it would be important for you or anyone else to know my history with dogs, whether brought up in a decent environment or not, but I'll tell you anyway.

Sneaker, GSD, got from breeder in 1986 at 16 weeks old. Terrific dog, lived to 14-1/2 years old.

Cassidy, GSD, got from a breeder in 2000 at 20 weeks old. Loved her to bits, but she had issues, primarily severe leash reactivity and weak nerves. My crash course in dog training, she needed a LOT of work.

Dena, GSD, got from a breeder in 2004 at 9 weeks old. Pretty darned perfect dog, raised with NILIF and everything else I learned from dealing with Cassidy, from her first day home.

Keefer, GSD, got from a breeder in 2005 at 9 weeks old. A big goofy sweetheart with mega prey drive who can be stubborn and pushy, but also a pretty terrific dog. Also started training and NILIF from day one.

 But now we're off topic, yes?
 

 

Ooops, off topic.....my appologies.....but, thank you for giving this valuable information.......you have no experience with rescues......

First of all, just because a person got all his/her dogs from breeders does not mean that they have no experience with rescues.  Perhaps a previous dog was a rescue, or they have worked as a trainer, or a transporter, or in a shelter or veterinary clinic environment.  Anyway, it doesn't seem to matter to you that some of us have owned rescued dogs all our lives, or that we work with rescues.  You don't seem to value our opinions either, unless they are similar to yours.  I don't think that someone needs to have dealt with rescues, or had a particularly nasty dog to work with, to understand that alpha rolling is not a good idea.  All you have to do is read the literature and have a heart.  Even a punishment, to be effective, needs to be rational, and make sense.  Otherwise, it is just bullying, and not likely to solve a thing in the long run.

spiritdogs

I don't think that someone needs to have dealt with rescues, or had a particularly nasty dog to work with, to understand that alpha rolling is not a good idea.  All you have to do is read the literature and have a heart.

Surely you are not implying that anyone on this board does not have a heart when it comes to dogs. Especially those dedicated to rescue. I'm sure you have misspoke . 

.:.