The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

lostcoyote

why is this a problem for some of you?

It's not a problem, not for me. I have a problem with the method as a whole, sure. I've already expressed that. But what you do with your dogs is your business, I agree. 

But the last time I checked, we weren't discussing people's dogs, we were discussing the theoretical method, so we are free to express our problems with the method itself. That's the whole point of the thread - purpose and effectiveness. The only problem seems to arise when people take personal offence to the opinion somebody has of the method, as though one is personally attacking another, when the entire point is simply to investigate what people think of it. And that, my friend, is one thing that is not my problem.

I just don't see a choke collar a form of violence.  Would I use it, no.  Are there some dogs who shouldn't wear one, sure.  But, violence??? 

And, sorry Kim but it did seem to me that other than clicker training you pretty much consider everything else violence.

Kim_MacMillan

 Just like I think choke chains, prongs, and e-collars are a form of violence, as are scruff shakes and striking a dog. The fact that you use them doesn't mean we shouldn't say what we think of them, and why we think they should not be used. It comes back down to differences in beliefs. Many of us think they are violent, and we have good reasons to back that up. If you use some of these things, and are proud of using them, then you really shouldn't care if we think they are violent. I think violence and dangers in techniques are VERY conducive to any discussion revolving how we treat our dogs, though, and if we are going to talk about how we treat our dogs, people will have to face that some people will call these violent techniques. I will never "not" call it violent just to appease somebody, because I think alpha rolls are quite a violent way to treat a dog, when one is doing an actual alpha roll. So as such, I will refer to them as being a violent maneouvre.

Objects have no ability on their own to be violent, only actions or thoughts can be violent.  I guess it all depends on how you define "violent."  If it is potential to cause physical, mental, or emotional discomfort then you should probably add head halters and Easy Walks to your list of offenders.  Dogs have the potential to badly hurt themselves on a head halter, and many hate them (my lab Jack).  Some dogs also hate Easy Walks (my lab again).  Interestingly enough, when we use a prong he is happy and relaxed, as opposed to his behavior on a GL or Easy Walk.  In the wrong hands ANYTHING, including a flat collar, could be used in a violent manner.....

corvus

snownose

I think after several pages we came to the conclusion that alpha rolling/pinning is the same as gentling.........would you say that Dunbar's technique should be applied by a pro?

As to why Ron felt he needed to alpha roll several times hasn't been answered.

And, yes, I have used gentling/pinning before.

Hold on, where did we decide that? I saw some people quite determined to see them all as the same thing and figured I should leave them to it. I most certainly do not think they are the same thing, though. For a start, Dunbar's 'gentling' is supposed to be for puppies only and only puppies that are throwing a tantrum or something similar. That's a wildly different thing to putting an aggressive adult dog on its side until it calms down. Adults and puppies are not just dogs. They're adult dogs and baby dogs. I might physically restrain a small child that's well beyond reasonable, but I would never try that on a human adult! No matter how mentally disturbed that adult might be. And even if the adult was somehow considerably smaller than me. It's not just about size, it's about respect and boundaries and what drives the behaviour. When a puppy or small child is throwing a tantrum, they might be tired or angry about being thwarted, but when an adult is in a similar state, it's usually driven by fear and is often a fight or flight response, which makes it far more serious. And then add in that puppies are usually quite resilient about being handled and don't have much in the way of a sense of personal space (compared to adults, that is), well... I dunno, I just think that puppies are generally unlikely to have much of a problem with that kind of handling, but a lot of adult dogs would, most especially if they are frightened and on the verge of a flight or fight response. I don't think you pinning or gentling means the same thing to puppies and adult dogs.

Corvus, with all due respect......do you have any experience with any dogs that will not conform to your way of thinking.......rescues, dogs straight out of a shelter, or just in general dogs that have not had the pleasure of having a proper raising since puppyhood?

 I guess I'm proud to be violent.

No regrets over my use of the prong. And while I think ARing is silly and potenially dangerous, I'm not up in arms over pinning a dog or puppy as long as you aren't slamming the poor thing willy-nilly.   

I do think there is a difference in pinning a pup vs. pinning an adult, even if both actions are done equally gently. (I see it as more appropriate for the youngin'.)

willowchow

I just don't see a choke collar a form of violence. 

That's fine that you don't. I was just stating that I do. We're both entitled to that. :-)

willowchow

And, sorry Kim but it did seem to me that other than clicker training you pretty much consider everything else violence.

Then I think, sadly, you have missed out on the majority of posts I have ever posted on this forum. ;-) I think if you take some time to read some of the threads over the past few months you'll get a better view of what "I" think, as it's all posted out there for people to see! A clicker is only one small portion of how I teach dogs, as I think I've said on at least a dozen other posts. Perhaps you missed them, or just forgot about them.

sillysally

Objects have no ability on their own to be violent, only actions or thoughts can be violent. 

Oh, you're quite right. But I think you also know exactly what I meant. I don't think we really need to play semantics again at this point.

sillysally

I guess it all depends on how you define "violent."  If it is potential to cause physical, mental, or emotional discomfort then you should probably add head halters and Easy Walks to your list of offenders.

Not potential, no. Anything has the potential to be used as a violent item. I qualify them based upon their intent. All of the things I have described are inherently intended to cause pain, aversion, fear, or intimidation - some of them a combination. Once again, if you've read many of my posts, you'd know my thoughts on head halters. I do not like them much at all, and there are very few dogs I would ever use them on personally. However, their intent is not to be used as a violent mechanism - of course the risk is there, but the intent is not. I can find the discussion on head halters for you, or you can look it up. Easy Walks, I have to say I have never yet met a dog that found them aversive, and of course they in no way cause pain that has been identified anywhere as of yet. If it has, believe me I'll look into it.  And again, the intent is to control, yes, but not to inflict anything aversive at all. All a front-clip harness does is shift the dogs pulling ability by taking the dog off its center of balance and shifting the body to the side.

sillysally

In the wrong hands ANYTHING, including a flat collar, could be used in a violent manner.....

Of course it can. A carrot and a remote control can be used in a violent manner, but they aren't intended to be violent acts. That's the difference. These things I described specifically, in their inherent creation were meant to be aversive, each and every one of them. That's the difference.

I certainly DO have experience with all of the conditions you listed, Snownose, and I've still not felt the need to use an alpha roll, "gentling" or a pin.

I will agree that the object itself is not capable of being violent.  I did use a prong with Thor to get past a sticky place in his training but I never used it in a manner that is consistent with violence.  And I'm sure that many others can say the exact same thing and be telling the honest truth.  Any tool can be abused and misused, or be the implement of violence.

glenmar

I certainly DO have experience with all of the conditions you listed, Snownose, and I've still not felt the need to use an alpha roll, "gentling" or a pin.

I will agree that the object itself is not capable of being violent.  I did use a prong with Thor to get past a sticky place in his training but I never used it in a manner that is consistent with violence.  And I'm sure that many others can say the exact same thing and be telling the honest truth.  Any tool can be abused and misused, or be the implement of violence.

I respect that, so you are saying you have rescued starving dogs straight out of rescue,or shelters hours away from death, Huskies, GSDs, Husky mixes .....I am not saying I pinned all, but some I did......and it put peace in the house....so, all could be together.....at all times....

snownose

I think after several pages we came to the conclusion that alpha rolling/pinning is the same as gentling.........would you say that Dunbar's technique should be applied by a pro?

No, it definitely is not the same thing. Both my current dogs took Sirius Puppy Training, a program founded and designed by Dunbar. We all read about the technique in his book After You Get Your Puppy, which was used as the textbook for Puppy 1, and it was described and demonstrated in class by the trainer. We practiced it in class, under the guidance of the trainer, and did it as a daily exercise at home between classes. Am I the only one on here that actually knows about it firsthand? Yes, it can be used to calm and settle an unruly puppy, but it's also great for desensitizing puppies to gentle restraint and handling.

But we practiced it as a training exercise, not, as I said before, in response to any particular behavior by the puppy. A puppy raised in this way shouldn't NEED to be alpha rolled as an adult. This is not about aggresive adult dogs, or shelter dogs/rescues, it's about how to raise puppies.

.:.

Cassidys Mom

But we practiced it as a training exercise, not, as I said before, in response to any particular behavior by the puppy. A puppy raised in this way shouldn't NEED to be alpha rolled as an adult. This is not about aggresive adult dogs, or shelter dogs/rescues, it's about how to raise puppies.

Interesting, what about the unruly adult that has never had a proper puppy raising?????

Folks, unless one has walked in my path with dogs that are sweet as rescues, or are total misfits about to be put down......don't ya think you should realize what is going on with tougher dogs?

Please, don't bring another "I got my puppy ", and I never had to pin my pup....we already realize that if a dog is raised properly, unless the dog is pushy, there is no need to pin it as an adult......

snownose

Interesting, what about the unruly adult that has never had a proper puppy raising?????

I'm not trying to tell you how to deal with adult dogs with less than perfect backrounds. You asked a question, I answered it - no, alpha rolling is not the same as what Dunbar refers to as "gentling". We learned the technique as an exercise to use ON puppies, IN a puppy class.

That's it - no hidden meanings in my post, no ulterior motives, no commentary on whatever methods you feel necessary to use on your dogs, nada.
 

Cassidys Mom

snownose

Interesting, what about the unruly adult that has never had a proper puppy raising?????

 

I'm not trying to tell you how to deal with adult dogs with less than perfect backrounds. You asked a question, I answered it - no, alpha rolling is not the same as what Dunbar refers to as "gentling". We learned the technique as an exercise to use ON puppies, IN a puppy class.

That's it - no hidden meanings in my post, no ulterior motives, no commentary on whatever methods you feel necessary to use on your dogs, nada.
 

You might not be sure of how an alpha roll is done, other than what you have read on this forum by not so accepting folks of said method....

Can I ask you, have you ever dealt with dogs other than dogs brought up in a decent environment....it's important for me to know, as it might be for other people who rescue......

Edited--Post edited as kind of confusing topic and may be misinterpreted.

Moderator speaking,

The post topic is once again, the "Alpha Roll -- purpose and effectiveness"  and baiting one another and as Admin has said, personal attacks is going to cause this thread to be locked.

Please stick to the topic at hand and take anything personal OFF the forum.