The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

snownose, my aggressive dog was from an abandoned litter, and arrived in my home at 7 wks old with socialization problems. I did not create his problems. Sadly, I was not able to fix them either.  Not enough, at least.

You want to throw out subtle barbs about leadership? This picture was taken after a playful doggy wrestling match:

 

 

Ivan, the handsome red boy, had a history of viciously attacking Sasha. (Real attacks, not ritualized stuff).  He was under control 24/7 at the time of the above picture, and we had worked with our trainer by then. He and Sasha were allowed play time on the condition that he never get on all four feet, and that the wrestling ended the second I said enough (to prevent anything from getting heated). I allowed them contact to keep them as socialized to each other as possible.

I had enough "leadership," control, whatever - to make this happen safely. That boy would have bitten me if I had ever tried to AR or pin him forcefully. He would have bitten anyone who tried it. When we first worked with our trainer, and the trainer gave Ivan his first prong collar correction for snarling and lunging at another dog, Ivan *did* try and bite him. The 2nd correction convinced him to stop. The trainer has experience with aggressive dogs, and was able to (a) not get bitten and (b) convince Ivan he meant business. This trainer agrees AR's are not a good method of choice for dealing with aggressive dogs.

I don't have a problem with you pinning your dogs, rescues, or whomever. Really. Doesn't bother me at all.

Me, I don't find a use for AR's. A dog I can roll is a dog I can lead through my presence, and obedience training. A dog I can't roll is a dog I hope to not have in my home ever again. 

 

 

Maybe, I didn't make myself clear......I was referring to the constant warnings of retaliation that go out by certain members.....

snownose

Maybe, I didn't make myself clear......I was referring to the constant warnings of retaliation that go out by certain members.....

 

Well, considering that there are many people that read this other than those that are posting, I think it is just common sense.  I've read that in various dog training books (and no, not clicker books) before I've ever seen it discussed here.  Personally, I don't fear that either of my dogs would bite me if I laid them down, but that does not mean that someone else's would not.  IMHO, it's just smart to be mindful of the safety risks whenever dealing with any animal.  

I warn people all the time of the possible danger of getting bit when they perform certain actions; what on earth does that have to do with alpha-rolling? I base these warnings on reading bite reports- when people are most likely to get bitten by their own dogs.  Doesn't mean they will, they are just actions that one is safer avoiding, especially if you're posting here begging for help.  When a dog bites, the dog usually ends up dead.  Certainly you can build trust with your dog and de-sensitize the dog to these actions, but unless you've done that it can be very dangerous to do things like hug a dog, grab a dog's collar, physically remove a dog from furniture, pry a bone out of a dog's mouth, suddenly touch a very distracted and aroused dog.   I'm not going to assume that everyone has spent time desensitizing their dog to everything.

When River first showed signs of resource guarding I posted on his breed forum my problems and fears.  I received a PM from a woman who wanted to share her story with me but hesitated to put it out on the forum due to the extreme of her experience.

 

She proceeded to explain to me that her Swissy was growling at her and her 5 children and that she tried things that didn’t work and hired a behaviorist/trainer (not sure which).  That he told her that no matter how violent he seemed that they needed to stay on board because this dog needed to be brought down to reality.  This trainer, as she explained in detail, Alpha Rolled her dog, put his hands against his throat and held him pinned until he submitted – at times his tongue turned blue.  She told me it was very painful to watch but she had to do something and this was her last attempt at controlling this dog. 

 

The whole while she explained this to me my mind was thinking, NO WAY would I let anyone do that to my dog!!  But I listened to her story and didn’t comment.  At the end she claimed to have a wonderful dog who she now trusts 100% with her children.

 

There is a huge difference in holding a puppy still and grabbing the scruff of a dog and slamming them to the floor – IMO.   The best way for River to ever learn stay was when I leashed him and made him sit by me.  No matter how badly he wanted to move, he stayed after a slight protest until I allowed him freedom again.   I too, have picked up puppy’s who were driving me crazy and pinned them to my body until they stopped moving crazily, or laid them on their back in my arms and held them still – never once did I associated that with a AR, and never did I feel like I did when that story of the trainer turning her dogs tongue blue in the process – so they must be different. 

 

I never used the AR and for the most part I know I never would – there is no evidence that proves to me that it is a successful tool in training and even the hard core trainers lean towards its ineffective.  But that doesn’t mean that these abbreviated AR maneuvers you all are speaking of and performing doesn’t work for you.  Providing you aren’t physically hurting your dogs – I give you all kudos for training your dogs – PERIOD!

 

I also think that we on this forum spend too much time arguing our points of view and trying to get the last word in when you all should be out Christmas Shopping!

 

This is sort of why I say that a dog that *can* be AR-ed can be worked with in other methods, and a dog that can't be worked with without serious force is not a safe dog to AR. I don't think ARing a safe dog is a crime, or necessarily harmful. I think there is a potential for harm if the handler misreads the dog, but no it isn't intrinsically a bad thing. The dog could be harmed if it is a soft dog, and the handler could be harmed if the dog isn't safe to AR. This is also why I'm more open to rolling/pinning/gentling a pup.You remove one half on the danger, so the odds are better that it'll work out.

Excellent post Dog_ma, I totally agree. I haven’t stated my views on alpha rolling yet, but since my training philosophy is LIMA, like some other posters on this thread, I think anyone can figure out it’s a technique I won’t use. But if I WERE inclined to alpha roll, it would be with one of my own current dogs, simply because they have solid temperaments, stable nerves, and have been raised with NILIF, and trained and socialized by me from a young age. I know they would accept it, I could do it safely without fear of injury to myself, and because they trust and respect me, without fear of damaging our relationship. Which is exactly why I don’t NEED to! With a rescue dog of uncertain temperament, with a history of possible abuse and/or neglect, with little or no training and/or socialization, I wouldn’t even consider putting myself in a position where I could be severely injured. Since my breed of choice is large, powerful, and highly intelligent, my training philosophy has evolved over time to preclude contests of physical strength because I’d lose every time. They are half my size and twice my strength so I choose to use my larger brain to show them why it’s in their best interest to comply rather than attempt to show my higher status by wrestling them to the ground.

I don't have a problem with you pinning your dogs, rescues, or whomever. Really. Doesn't bother me at all. Me, I don't find a use for AR's. A dog I can roll is a dog I can lead through my presence, and obedience training.

Again, well put. I don’t care if someone else thinks alpha rolls are a great idea, if it works for them and they’re comfortable with it, fine. I just don’t think it’s necessary, and that’s not only because I’ve had the luxury of raising my dogs from puppyhood. I can guarantee you most people would have sent Cassidy back to the breeder because of her issues. I knew practically nothing about dog training when we got her and was totally unprepared for the force of nature that she was – but I saw her as a challenge to overcome and set about learning as much as I could because I was not about to be outwitted by a dog. I’m a stubborn b*itch! I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, I don’t insist that anyone else train the way I do simply because I think it’s the best way, and I haven’t slammed anyone else for the way they train their dogs. See how we can agree to disagree?

It's not about fear for me, by any means. As someone who works more with wild animals than domestic, I get bitten by things all the time. I always consider it my fault, naturally, because as the zoologist I ought to be more aware of the animals I'm trying to handle. No wild animal will let a person handle them without a fight, but even then, it's in the animal's interest that I avoid being bitten. I've seen people get bitten and drop the animal, which can lead to them getting hurt or even killed. So for me, I certainly don't like being bitten or clawed, but it's as much if not more for the safety and calmness of the animal that I try not to get hurt than for myself.

What it is about for me is relationships. I don't have much experience to draw from, but I have a dog I have used physical corrections on and a hare I could count the number of times I've physically forced on one hand. The relationship I have with my hare is far deeper and more trusting and somehow more complete than the relationship I have with my dog. Both relationships are good, but one is without question better. All I can do is think what I did differently and attribute that to a better relationship. I have tamed and trained cows that haven't ever been treated kindly by a person in their lives, and the more force used, the more troublesome the cows become. You can certainly beat them into submission or train them with physical corrections, and generally they will grudgingly do what you want them to, but they never like you and always try to catch you unawares and stamp on your foot or suddenly swing you into a fence and squash you there. However, train them with kindness and refrain from trying to force them to do anything and they become quite affectionate towards you and will go so far as to seek you out. That makes it a lot easier to work with them.

So, I still don't understand where an alpha roll on an adult dog would help anyone's relationship. I've worked with all sorts of different animals and have come to the conclusion that when you physically force them to do something you take a giant leap backwards. How can you expect them to trust you if you physically force them to do something they don't want to do? If someone did that to me, I'd find it very traumatic and I'd be afraid of that someone, whether they smiled as they forced me or shouted. I have not yet met an animal that is okay with being forced. Most animals struggle less if you hold them tighter and are less afraid if they don't feel like you're about to drop them, but why do something to them that they don't like? When do you need to do an alpha roll on an adult dog? That's what I don't get.

.:.

I don’t care if someone else thinks alpha rolls are a great idea, if it works for them and they’re comfortable with it, fine.

I care. I think of it as similar to using physical discipline on children- IMHO, parents should not have the right to choose to raise their children in certain ways. I feel the same way about dog owners and dog "trainers". I don't know about "pinning", but an alpha roll, performed as orginally described, is a very violent act bordering on abusive. Same with choking or beating a dog into submission. Training a dog with the occasional physical correction, say a few collar-pops is a personal choice; alpha roll is abuse and shouldn't be a choice condoned by society.

Dog_ma

(b) convince Ivan he meant business.

 

And that is exactly what some dogs need, be it through pinning( I know about the biting danger), or corrections....as harsh as it may seem to be to some folks.....some dogs are just tough.......and will not respond to positive anything.....

mudpuppy

I care. I think of it as similar to using physical discipline on children- IMHO, parents should not have the right to choose to raise their children in certain ways. I feel the same way about dog owners and dog "trainers". I don't know about "pinning", but an alpha roll, performed as orginally described, is a very violent act bordering on abusive. Same with choking or beating a dog into submission. Training a dog with the occasional physical correction, say a few collar-pops is a personal choice; alpha roll is abuse and shouldn't be a choice condoned by society.

mudpuppy....give this a break already...all of us here agree that the way you have experienced alpha rolls is nothing like we see it....

.:.

.:.

lostcoyote

mp: "I don't know about "pinning", but an alpha roll, performed as orginally described, is a very violent act bordering on abusive."

i don't think very many people here would argue with you that if a person used the "original technique" and slammed their dog down onto the ground really hard, per your descriptions in earlier postings, then that would constitute a violent act

i also don't think that anyone here even does that

so why is the original "slamming" technique at the forefront of your thouhts?

can you get beyond these visions? how about pinning?.... there are people here that say they have pinned their dogs down in order to get them to have an extinction burst followed up by calm behavior and rehabilitation from an otherwise out of control dog. would that be a worthy thing to discuss instead of an old technique that nobody does here anyways (except entertain it in their minds perhaps?)

 

Maybe we should not have been discussing the "original technique" at all then, although I certainly defer to sillysally's right to start threads on whatever topic she wants.  Hey, I have an idea.  Why don't we start a brandy spankin' new thread on "pinning" and see how obnoxious and contentious we can make that one???   

mudpuppy

I don’t care if someone else thinks alpha rolls are a great idea, if it works for them and they’re comfortable with it, fine.

I care. I think of it as similar to using physical discipline on children- IMHO, parents should not have the right to choose to raise their children in certain ways. I feel the same way about dog owners and dog "trainers". I don't know about "pinning", but an alpha roll, performed as orginally described, is a very violent act bordering on abusive. Same with choking or beating a dog into submission. Training a dog with the occasional physical correction, say a few collar-pops is a personal choice; alpha roll is abuse and shouldn't be a choice condoned by society.

 

I get your point, but I know I'm not going to talk someone out of a training technique that they find effective for whatever reason, simply because I don't personally like it and wouldn't use it. That doesn't mean I condone it, but it's not my place to instruct other people how to raise their dogs. Nobody likes that sort of thing and it's pretty clear on this thread, among others, that it's counterproductive anyway. If discussions like these can help others understand WHY we do and don't like certain kinds of training and maybe open their minds to trying other techniques, particularly more positive, less compulsive ones, that's great. But attempting to shove it down their throats is just pointless.

 

some dogs are just tough.......and will not respond to positive anything.....

I absolutely disagree that some dogs won't respond to any kind of positive training. Motivational training is used on very tough, very hard dogs for all kinds of police work, from taking down criminals, to drug detection work. One of the moderators on my GSD board has been raising, importing, and training police dogs for decades. That doesn't mean she won't occasionally "tie a knot in a dog's tail", as she puts it, (figuratively of course), but intially all training is motivational, usually using toys as a reward.

There are also many people very active in rescue on the board, people dealing with dogs with incredible issues, multi-dog packs of their own, with fosters coming and going all the time, a very delicate balance. I have the utmost respect for these people and their methods, which DO work, and are almost entirely positive, with occasional corrections as needed.