The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

glenmar

Suppose that I'm out walking my usual 3 dogs in town.  A loose dog charges.  What would others do in THAT situation?  Lets suppose that I can control MY dogs, but the loose one is bent on a fight and attacks.........

That's happened to me. Twice. Three times if you count the dog that lunged more than charged because he was too close for a full charge. You can bet I wasn't going to get my hands anywhere near them! I evaded and backed out of the territory. I've never seen it happen outside of a dog's territory.

FourIsCompany

Absolutely! If my dog were to bite me, I would see it as a bit of a failure on my part and figure out what I did wrong. Just as I would if they attacked another one of my dogs or pooped on the floor. I would not feel differently about the dog.  

My dog bit me once. By accident, as it turned out. She was snapping at a dog on the other side of me and I instinctively but stupidly whipped my hand up between them to stop her. She got my hand, but she realised before she even finished the snap and her jaws went slack and she went belly up before I even registered what had happened. Interestingly, it's the only time she's ever rolled on her back in that extreme submissive gesture directed at me. I wasn't hurt, but I can say I was pretty relieved that she was clearly mortified about biting me rather than not caring. I was still a kid at the time, though. I have since been bitten by a whole variety of animals and yes, it's generally my stupid fault for not paying attention, or handling an animal in a way it doesn't like. Big surprise, there.

espencer, how do you know the way a dog thinks? How do you know your dog doesn't feel one thing inside but show another on the outside? Sometimes my dog gets annoyed with one of her yard mates. She'll grumble to herself, and sometimes she bares her teeth at the dog that's annoying her. I know my dog generally uses bared teeth as the warning before bared teeth and a snarl, which is the warning before she air snaps. How do I know when she bares her teeth she wouldn't prefer to be air-snapping, but doesn't want to get into an argument with a dog she knows will beat her? Why wouldn't she scale back her signals despite being royally pissed off in the interests of protecting her skin? Sometimes she grumbles at me, while carefully hiding her teeth and looking away. How could I know she wouldn't prefer to bare her teeth at me but feels it's not in her best interests to annoy the one that brings good things? You just can't know these things.

And another thing. Those of you picking at Dunbar's 'gentling', I thought I saw in the quote that this was a technique he used for a puppy that was throwing a tantrum. That's quite different to doing it routinely to all puppies.

And hey, talking about times to use force to calm, I have done this once or twice with Penny when we had some big fireworks going off across the road. She was just about beside herself. One time I boxed her into her 'den' with my body and sat down with her with my leg quite firm against her back. She tried to get up to run around the house in hysterics, but I kept my leg on her back and she decided it would be better to stay with me. She relaxed and I was able to take my leg away and she didn't run off to bark hysterically. Sometimes hysterical animals can benefit from being forced to calmness, but only if they actually do get calm. I have a nice big balance in our piggy bank of trust, so Penny didn't take much convincing with force. However, had I done it to her when she was a puppy or when I didn't know her that well, perhaps she would have found that scary rather than reassuring. Of course, try to hold my hare to calm him down and he won't look at you for the next week, so furious and betrayed will he be.

*content removed, off topic, personal*

.:.

*content removed off topic*

*content removed off topic*

Moderator speaking...

Stay on topic and save the sweetly rude commentary for PM, or in your own heads...or heck call each other on the phone and say it. Leave it out of this thread...and this thread stays on topic. Period.

If you performed the alpha roll successfully you can even take your hands away and the dog will still be laying on the ground by himself, his head on the ground, muscles relaxed, etc.

May I respectfully suggest that you try that on the first angry Fila Brasileiro that you meet???

**content removed, baiting**

Also, if you don't think dogs can figure out that a click predicts a reward, then how come they can understand where the treat jar is, or that the can opener sound means food.   And, you are quite correct that the dog learns to manipulate us into clicking!!!!  That's why it works - the dog is training the human - he's exhibiting the behavior that we want him to for the click - and, thus, for the rewards he hopes to get.  Better than if he were "training" us to not jerk his leash or alpha roll him.

spiritdogs

Also, if you don't think dogs can figure out that a click predicts a reward, then how come they can understand where the treat jar is, or that the can opener sound means food.   And, you are quite correct that the dog learns to manipulate us into clicking!!!!  That's why it works - the dog is training the human - he's exhibiting the behavior that we want him to for the click - and, thus, for the rewards he hopes to get.  Better than if he were "training" us to not jerk his leash or alpha roll him.

Don't we have enough click and treat**content removed, baiting**hreads alread?

I thought we are to be on topic......

.:.

spiritdogs

If you performed the alpha roll successfully you can even take your hands away and the dog will still be laying on the ground by himself, his head on the ground, muscles relaxed, etc.

May I respectfully suggest that you try that on the first angry Fila Brasileiro that you meet???

**content removed, previously edited content**

Well, no one asked me, but it is an interesting question.

I used to alpha roll a number of times but I didn't keep count. Many would be as accurate as I can remember. I also remember that it didn't accomplish what I thought it would.

ron2

Well, no one asked me, but it is an interesting question.

I used to alpha roll a number of times but I didn't keep count. Many would be as accurate as I can remember. I also remember that it didn't accomplish what I thought it would.

**content removed, baiting**