The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

 As a non-participant on this particular thread, I find I learn a lot more when people stick to discussing the theories and trainers at hand instead of other people's particular dogs. Just sayin'.

DPU

We won't know until you describe the details of your encounter.  Again, it has to be very very rare that one dog would go up against a 3 dog pack in an open area.  I have never seen it.

I'm not saying that it didnt happen but i find it very rare indeed 

espencer

When i say Human psychology applied to a dog i mean that you feel that a dog thinks the way a human think, and thats not true

Yes, exactly, you prove my point.  You feel that the alpha roll should mean, to a dog, what it means to you.  

Comparing clicker training to alpha rolling is a bit pointless....one is a training method, the other is a management technique. 

snownose

Ron, you say you clicker train, could you trust your dog off leash and you not being around anywhere? Could you guarantee what his actions would be based on the fact that you clicker train?

He's a cross-over dog. Not CGC ready just yet and I've been using the clicker less than a year. But the idea is that if he were to get loose, I've got a recall that should get him back to me long enough to re-leash. And he is Siberian Husky in temperment, even if most of his colors are dark. As a breed, brilliant exceptions such as your aside, you never walk them off-leash. I know of a Sibe that won off-leash obedience awards, as in plural. And one day, off leash with his owner, smelled something interesting on the wind or followed that breed desire to run like crazy. And he wasn't seen again. So, he's not going to be off-leash, at least right now, with another dog unless it is in a contained environment. And yes, in that case, I would trust him and have done so. Once, while trying to play with a Chi named Oz, Oz got scared by Shadow's size and started snarling and barking and thought he might have to defend himself in spite of Shadow's obvious willingness to play. Shadow started to return fire, snarling and barking and preparing to lunge. I called "off" and he offed in mid-snarl and I walked to him and re-leashed while his owner re-leashed his dog. Off was trained with rewards, several times at various instances, even with just the cat, or anything, and even if I had to get up and get a treat.

So, it seems we're all in agreement that an AR is usually not called for. and there's some agreement that we can't always judge how the dog sees the roll, and that manhandling a puppy is not always a alpha move and that even that event might not have a lasting corrective quality, though it may be conditioned as a good thing meaning the puppy is loved, etc. In which case, it is affection, a reinforcer, not a correction. We've also noted that often, what looks like dog A pinning dog B is actually dog B offering an appeasement signal, which often leads to more play. In fact, humping is more likely a move of control and can be seen even among same gender animals, which rules out a desire to mate.

In the end, it would seem, the AR has limited effectiveness and purpose, even stated by people who use corrective styles of training. So, then I wonder, what is the need to defend the AR as a correction or punishment and instead, simply refer to it as a physical hold that has sometimes been used to contain a dog, with no expectation that it has a modification effect as a punisher.

ron2

Can anyone here say that they would AR these dogs and have it work as an effective punishment against further infractions? And what is the timing? What are you punishing and when and remember that a dog can change from second to second.

I was responding to this in reference why alpha rolling should not be brought up when it comes to loose dogs......when owner/handler is not present, we don't know what the animals would do exactly......regardless of their training....or what management technique was used.....I can't guarantee what my dogs would do, and you will never know what Shadow would be like without you in the picture....

I wanted to add, what most people seem to forget is that CM uses the alpha roll on super tough cases.....it's not like every show has an alpha roll in it.......CM wouldn't be in business if every owner lived up to what is expected.....proper training and management from day one......

I don't understand, maybe you guys can clarify. If the alpha roll is not supposed to be used on a strange or unpredictable dog, but is not necessary when you have a good relationship with the dog or have used "proper training and management," then under what circumstances would you use it? (Other than apparently on puppies to establish your leadership position.) 

I HAVE explained what happened.  Sorry I didn't have a camera with me, but I doubt I'd have had a chance to use it.  What other details do you need other than that the dog was charging at us and his body language?

Benedict

Yes, exactly, you prove my point.  You feel that the alpha roll should mean, to a dog, what it means to you.  

Comparing clicker training to alpha rolling is a bit pointless....one is a training method, the other is a management technique.

No, i'm not comparing anything, again, dog psychology and human psychology are not the same, the way you feel the dog will think is just like a human would think, not a dog, dog psychology books teach you that, thats why i'm not just "assuming" what the dog is thinking

I could say the same about the techniques you use "You feel that the" click and treat "should mean, to a dog, what it means to you." But everything would come down to the fact that you never tried an alpha roll before in your life and i did, you talk out of assumptions, based on what other people say, i (as well as a couple other people here) talk out of experience 

Cita, your question was addressed in one of my earlier post....but it wasn't theory talk....it was in theory in practice which you stated you do not like.

Cita

I don't understand, maybe you guys can clarify. If the alpha roll is not supposed to be used on a strange or unpredictable dog, but is not necessary when you have a good relationship with the dog or have used "proper training and management," then under what circumstances would you use it? (Other than apparently on puppies to establish your leadership position.) 

You mean to tell me we did over 20 plus pages and the question still lingers?

espencer

dog psychology books teach you that

Technically, there is not a field labeled dog psychology. There are books on training and behavior and the do not all share a consensus. And the qualifications of the authors range from no school to having multiple post-graduate degrees and occupations dealing with animal behavior and careers that span decades, some for as long or longer than I have been alilve. Pretty much every one of them has had dogs, large and small, more than one, has dealt with dogs with varying degrees of difficulties. Some of this experience happened in the 60's and 70's when not everyone had their own tv show or precious videos. For example, Karen Pryor did a lot of her ground-breaking work before that guy with the t.v. show was born. In the early 60's, you either had 8 mm for small format, such as home movies, or you had the big expensive rigs that required a crew to operate, such as for movies you might see in the theater.

I agree that humans and dogs do not necessarily think alike.

As for click and treat meaning what it does to the dog, that's beyond my control and happens, regardless of what I think about it. Operant conditioning is an effect that happens to any organism, regardless of species or genus. It doesn't matter if I call it goosenfrabe, the effect is still happening. In fact, my dog, like any dog, defines what is a reward or reinforcer. Because the simple fact of the matter is an organism works toward a reward and avoids punishment. It's how we learn to walk. We keep falling down. We finally learn to balance and avoid falling down. The reward is better mobility and range. (We can finally go and touch that hot stove that Momma keeps us away from with her stern looks and words.) I don't decide, all right, the sight of my Minnesota Vikings sweatshirt shall be your reward and then click and show it for it to be a reward. My dog, however, is in rapt attention if he knows I have steak. Done long enough, he will do what ask I because, in a classical sense, there will be a reward somewhere, sometime, and it is worth it, at least to him.

As opposed to scruff, pin, and roll, which for most times for him, feels like play. To me, I might have meant it as a correction but that is not how he saw it. He defines what is punishment. Since I need him to not be hand-shy and have better vet visits or even meeting people in public who want to pet, then I shouldn't be using my hands to punish. Otherwise, he will never know if my descending hand is to pet or pop. If I think I am punishing him with an AR, then I am anthropromorphizing, putting my human psychology on his "dog psychology."

espencer

No, i'm not comparing anything, again, dog psychology and human psychology are not the same, the way you feel the dog will think is just like a human would think, not a dog, dog psychology books teach you that, thats why i'm not just "assuming" what the dog is thinking

I know my dog doesn't think the way I do.  I just don't pretend to know exactly how he *does* think.  That's the difference.  The only thing I know for SURE when it comes to clicker training my dog is that my dog likes food. 

espencer

would come down to the fact that you never tried an alpha roll before in your life and i did, you talk out of assumptions, based on what other people say, i (as well as a couple other people here) talk out of experience

If I were either making assumptions, or I had my mind made up beyond any doubt, I wouldn't be in this thread asking questions and debating for the purposes of hoping to gain some enlightenment.  I'd just be on my merry way and leave the rest of you to duke it out because I wouldn't care.  I have never alpha rolled because I don't need to.  I have never needed to because I have made sure that I don't need to.  Yes I have philosophical objections to it, that's quite clear, but I do at least attempt to couch both my philosophy and my objections in well-reasoned argument.  Well-reasoned might mean something different to me than it does to you, and that's fine.  I can't talk for you, and neither would I want to. 

snownose

Cita

I don't understand, maybe you guys can clarify. If the alpha roll is not supposed to be used on a strange or unpredictable dog, but is not necessary when you have a good relationship with the dog or have used "proper training and management," then under what circumstances would you use it? (Other than apparently on puppies to establish your leadership position.) 

You mean to tell me we did over 20 plus pages and the question still lingers?

Pretty much  

.:.