The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

the worst case scenario did happen to my SO, and that was the absolute end of any kind of physical discipline in our household. We tip-toed around the dog in a state of well, terror, for several weeks while trying to decide whether to have the dog killed or not. During which hands-off period we noticed the dog actually starting to respond to our now hands-off attempts to train. We never truly trusted the dog again, with us or with anyone.

You ask why CM is associated with the alpha roll? because it had been resoundingly denounced and abandoned as a "useful" training method until he suddenly revived it. Like most of his "techniques" it might work for him (I've never seen any long-term proof of this), but is appallingly dangerous for 99.9% of everyone else to attempt. You should notice his show has a disclaimer telling you not to do this at home- a good hint. Anything he does, you should not do at home.

Excellent Snownose.  Remove the human from the situation and what likely happens is natural dog greeting behavior.  Situation get too rough, someone is going to run away and hide.

I have never been bitten by my dogs....but, I know my dogs.....with rescues it's different, one must proceed with caution until one knows enough about the dog......

If I were to get bitten, I would have to look at what went wrong.....but, I would not feel differently about the animal....I have had to deal with severe SA (and the destructive ways that come with it), sick dogs that nearly destroyed my carpet by being sick....I feel the same about them......

Another thing I want to point out....I always mentioned that I am hands on with my dogs...........they are used to my touch and I am totally confident with my dogs.....

Kate, you recently went through a very tough situation of wanting to add to your family...sadly, it didn't work out....folks like me push through that tough time when rescueing, but, I apply different techniques than you....and every person has to be comfortable with what their technique is.....

snownose

Kate, you recently went through a very tough situation of wanting to add to your family...sadly, it didn't work out....folks like me push through that tough time when rescueing, but, I apply different techniques than you....and every person has to be compfortable with what their technique is.....

I did, yes....and it was heartrending to return Toby, but I did because in the end, aggression between the 2 of them wasn't the problem, it was that Toby had no interest in Ben but proved to me that he did have interest in other dogs.  They were just a bad match personality wise and nothing I could have done was going to make them a good match, though I could have made them coexist.

Ben did take offense to Toby's aloofness, and it's possible that more physical methods could have controlled that, but Ben has never been treated like that.  AR-ing him then, or using ANY kind of different/more forceful method would have caused him to further associate Toby with bad things and bad changes - exactly the opposite of what I would have needed, even assuming that I thought it would work.  

charging, growling, snarling, tooth displaying dog, ears back, hair up, and tail stiff. 

I'm sorry, but in what universe is THIS a normal greeting?

spiritdogs

For a punishment to be effective, it needs to be pretty immediate.  What's the sense of alpha rolling a dog that has already terminated a fight.  Are you punishing him for stopping?????  Believe it or not, some dogs will interpret that way, and the next fight they get into when a human is around will be pretty darn nasty.  I didn't see the CM clip, but if you post it here, we can all take a look. 

?????? I dont know what are you talking about, who let their dogs fight until the fight is finished???????????? You separate, brake up the fight and put the dog who did the aggression first on an alpha roll, to calm him down (not to show him who's the boss) and no, the other dog wont feel he won because he is seeing the opponent on the ground, no, the other dog only will realize that there are consequences for being aggressive, granted you have to be very skilled to deal with both dogs, one to be put on his side and prevent the other to keep attacking, so if you dont have someone else holding the other dog i would not recommend to do it, CM does but he is experienced

spiritdogs

You are both correct that pre-empting the fight is the best course, but you hardly need an alpha roll to do that, if you are sufficiently observant.  That's when a good "leave it", "watch" or recall is very valuable.  Personally, I would not take any dog that isn't fluent in  those skills to a dog park.

 

Agree, a re direction is always better, usually the alpha roll comes after the redirections have fail, when a dog is in that state of mind about killing another dog there is no command or re direction that will snap the dog out of it, no leave it, no hamburger, no leash correction, etc

glenmar

Would you alpha roll a strange and agressive dog to protect your own?

I dont know if you read my other post but to wrestle an estrange unleashed aggressive dog while charging at you is not very smart

Benedict

I thought the point was to make the dog submit?  Which yes, will appear to calm the dog - they submit, they stop struggling....but submission doesn't equal calm.  Giving in doesn't mean the dog is not nervous or even terrified inside, it only means they have realised that showing those feelings on the outside earns them physical discipline (whether gentle or not). 

Example of human psychology applied to a dog. Dogs dont show on the outside and feel something totally different in the inside, they show what they feel and thats it, while you are holding a dog in the ground you can feel if he is still trying to get up at least a little bit, you feel he is still tense, his muscles are not relaxed, his head is not totally on the ground if you were not holding it, etc.

If you performed the alpha roll successfully you can even take your hands away and the dog will still be laying on the ground by himself, his head on the ground, muscles relaxed, etc

Benedict

I don't think CM is that good because if he were, he wouldn't be so controversial, I don't think anyone is that good.  It indicates a level of interspecies communication that I don't think it's possible to achieve....and even if it were, and someone WAS that good, they wouldn't need to resort to flattening the dog to send any kind of message about anything. 

Maybe you should read and watch his videos, he is controversial because there are people who dont like that their favorite trainer is not as successful, that sine CM does not use their favorite techniques they always seeing him with a negative closed mind

You are only making up your own opinion based on what others have to say, you should form you own opinion based on what you have read and watch, maybe you will be able to understand what he is trying to communicate while other people cant

When CM is "Flattening a dog" he is dealing with 5,6 or more years of a dog with out any kind of rules, help with his problems, etc and usually he does not need to do it and thats why for me he IS that good, but since he deals with extreme, almost PTS dogs because their aggression then he has to perform it, from all the dogs he has helped in 4 seasons maybe he only needed to do it 3 times, is not like he does it left and right, that actually is something you realize if you were watching his shows dont listen to others, form your own opinion from what YOU have seen and read

Benedict

If a dog had a trusting relationship with the owner, there would be no need for an alpha roll.

You are right, if every owner could socialize the dog from the beginning, teaching him rules from the beginning, etc then there would not be need for anything, but people dont do it, they let the problem grow and thats why there is need for it, which does not cause pain or (the biggest concern of all) hurts the dog's feeling anyway

ron2

he's been bitten more often by the smaller dogs than usually the big dogs. Do you watch the show? It's usually on NGC.

And your point is? Ian Dunbar has been bitten too, that happens when you work with aggressive dogs, is just like not expecting a professional football player to get hurt sometimes

snownose

If I were to get bitten, I would have to look at what went wrong.....but, I would not feel differently about the animal...

Absolutely! If my dog were to bite me, I would see it as a bit of a failure on my part and figure out what I did wrong. Just as I would if they attacked another one of my dogs or pooped on the floor. I would not feel differently about the dog.  

Benedict

When did alpha rolling become synonymous with CM? 

It isn't. He performs a sort of roll (onto the side) but he is not synonymous with it. He's just a public person who does it.

And I agree with espencer, you should watch him before forming your opinion of him, because he is a highly controversial personality, and like Oprah, George Bush, Tom Cruise and Kofi Annan, some people hate him, but he is also very much respected by others.

espencer

Example of human psychology applied to a dog. Dogs dont show on the outside and feel something totally different in the inside, they show what they feel and thats it, while you are holding a dog in the ground you can feel if he is still trying to get up at least a little bit, you feel he is still tense, his muscles are not relaxed, his head is not totally on the ground if you were not holding it, etc.

Human psychology applied to a dog is to assume that because WE know what the alpha roll means (to us) that the dog knows what it should mean (to him and us).

espencer

Maybe you should read and watch his videos, he is controversial because there are people who dont like that their favorite trainer is not as successful, that sine CM does not use their favorite techniques they always seeing him with a negative closed mind

You are only making up your own opinion based on what others have to say, you should form you own opinion based on what you have read and watch, maybe you will be able to understand what he is trying to communicate while other people cant

When CM is "Flattening a dog" he is dealing with 5,6 or more years of a dog with out any kind of rules, help with his problems, etc and usually he does not need to do it and thats why for me he IS that good, but since he deals with extreme, almost PTS dogs because their aggression then he has to perform it, from all the dogs he has helped in 4 seasons maybe he only needed to do it 3 times, is not like he does it left and right, that actually is something you realize if you were watching his shows dont listen to others, form your own opinion from what YOU have seen and read

 

I have no opinion on CM, I don't care what others think of him.  I do have an opinion on the alpha roll, which is what we are discussing here, and is not a CM invention. 

glenmar

I'm sorry, but in what universe is THIS a normal greeting?

The same universe that contains the Milky Way. 

This is my observation and interpretation after introducing shelters dogs to my pack.  I have never had a fight break out during the greetings.  The newest foster was rejected by two foster homes (and now I am told it was 3) and asked to leave the vet clinic kennel.  She is labeled Dog Aggressive.  Those people misread the greeting signs.  I did not and she is living here in peace with other dogs and is part of a 6 member dog pack.

Benedict

Ben did take offense to Toby's aloofness, and it's possible that more physical methods could have controlled that, but Ben has never been treated like that.  AR-ing him then, or using ANY kind of different/more forceful method would have caused him to further associate Toby with bad things and bad changes - exactly the opposite of what I would have needed, even assuming that I thought it would work.

Ben would have a hard time with my pack,also......GSDs and Huskies are not the most outgoing dogs and are known to be aloof at times.....Ben being a Lab...well, we know how Labs are....lol

He's fine with dogs that don't want to play......but I've learned he's not fine with dogs that won't do at least a cursory sniff as a greeting.   

Perhaps he'd prefer a dog who rushed at him with a lunge, snarl, growl, teeth showing, etc?  After all....normal greeting and all.

I will not dispute what you have seen and experienced, DPU, however, what I saw, was in my experience an agressive dog intent on starting a fight with my crew.  I've seen plenty of agressive dogs in my day, and this was one of them.

Benedict

Ben did take offense to Toby's aloofness, and it's possible that more physical methods could have controlled that, but Ben has never been treated like that.  AR-ing him then, or using ANY kind of different/more forceful method would have caused him to further associate Toby with bad things and bad changes - exactly the opposite of what I would have needed, even assuming that I thought it would work.  

Toby's aloofness in your home is very typical behavior, in my experience.  It takes a new dog about a month to adjust to its new surroundings.  For my newest foster, it took her about 3 weeks before she started playing with toys and started playing with the other dogs.  I think Ben would survived without any interference from you.  Well, other than trying to set up social situation which is what I do all the time.

Benedict

If the worst case scenario happened, and you rolled a dog and it did fight back and seriously injure you, would you ever be able to look at your dog in the same way?  Would your attitude towards the dog change, or would your training methods change?  What would be the next step for you?

Well my first sig says it all, lets say that happens, let say that my dog never had any kind of rules before, i didnt socialize her and i dont know what i'm doing while performing an alpha roll and i get bitten

The LAST thing i should do is changing my attitude towards my dog because that would be like asking to get bitten again, if you dont trust your dog they know it and they wont trust you back either, i will think where my error was and make sure i dont have the same mistake again

But since we know what the outcome could be (getting bitten) thats why we just dont come one day to the house and do an alpha roll, no, we make sure that everything we needed to do to prevent it was done, and if it didnt work, we make sure that we know what we are doing

Benedict

Human psychology applied to a dog is to assume that because WE know what the alpha roll means (to us) that the dog knows what it should mean (to him and us).

That is not Human psychology applied to a dog, that could be only an assumption, like it would be if i assume click and treat is a way for the dog to manipulate the human to give him food, that would be also, and i quote "to assume that because WE know what the" click and treat "means (to us) that the dog knows what it should mean (to him and us).

When i say Human psychology applied to a dog i mean that you feel that a dog thinks the way a human think, and thats not true

Benedict

and is not a CM invention. 

And no body say it was

glenmar

Perhaps he'd prefer a dog who rushed at him with a lunge, snarl, growl, teeth showing, etc?  After all....normal greeting and all.

I will not dispute what you have seen and experienced, DPU, however, what I saw, was in my experience an agressive dog intent on starting a fight with my crew.  I've seen plenty of agressive dogs in my day, and this was one of them.

 

We won't know until you describe the details of your encounter.  Again, it has to be very very rare that one dog would go up against a 3 dog pack in an open area.  I have never seen it.