The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Dog_ma

the reason I'm speaking of winning and losing is that a person ARing an aggressive dog is thinking and acting along those lines

No, no, no. Maybe the "macho men" you've talked to have been thinking along those lines, but any behaviorist, psychologist or owner worth a dime isn't thinking in terms of winning or losing. That's crazy talk. They're thinking of calming the dog and resolving the situation.

glenmar

No, I did not interfer with a natural dog greeting.  A natural dog greeting does NOT including a charging, growling, snarling, tooth displaying dog, ears back, hair up, and tail stiff.  This was not a greeting. 

Without any other information provided and not knowing how you reacted, this sure was a greeting.  Everything you mentioned are calming signals.  What did you do?

I'm not arguing that definition of submissive...my point is that a lot more things can be coming into play here.

The dog could be put out submissive signals, while still being nervous or terrified.

The dog could be submitting in that instance, saying "ok, you win this time because it doesn't matter enough to me"...that isn't changing the dog's overall view of his relationship with his owner, just picking his battles.  At worst, the logical result is that the dog is biding his time until something DOES matter enough not to submit, and injuries happen.

When did alpha rolling become synonymous with CM?  He didn't invent this, so I am puzzled by people equating one with the other.  I live in a CM-free zone...I have never seen his show or read a book by him.  I haven't read anything by McConnell or Ragaas, either.  That doesn't mean I dislike any of those people, it means that my own choice not to have exposure to them means I am not qualified to make a judgement one way or the other. 

In order to be absolutely, no-room-for-debate sure of the alpha roll, of the effect it will have on the dog, a person's relationship with the dog and how the dog will feel about it or respond to it, one would have to be exceptionally good at reading dog behavior.  I don't think CM is that good because if he were, he wouldn't be so controversial, I don't think anyone is that good.  It indicates a level of interspecies communication that I don't think it's possible to achieve....and even if it were, and someone WAS that good, they wouldn't need to resort to flattening the dog to send any kind of message about anything. 

Benedict

DPU

The whole point of doing an alpha roll is to change the dog's state of mind from chaos to calm.

 

 

I thought the point was to make the dog submit?  Which yes, will appear to calm the dog - they submit, they stop struggling....but submission doesn't equal calm.  Giving in doesn't mean the dog is not nervous or even terrified inside, it only means they have realised that showing those feelings on the outside earns them physical discipline (whether gentle or not). 

Is that not the same as extinguishing a growl? 

Great observation, and I think you are correct.  Some dogs will accept physical "discipline" for a while, then suddenly decide that they need to tell you that they've had quite enough thanks.  When that happens with a large powerful breed, it isn't pretty.  And, if the dog feels he can't nail the trainer, and redirects on someone else, like his owner or a bystander, that really isn't pretty.

Benedict

The dog could be submitting in that instance, saying "ok, you win this time because it doesn't matter enough to me"...that isn't changing the dog's overall view of his relationship with his owner, just picking his battles.  At worst, the logical result is that the dog is biding his time until something DOES matter enough not to submit, and injuries happen.

Couldn't that be said about Dunbar's "Gentling" technique?

glenmar

.....the ear set, the way the tail is held, the little patch of hair on the neck that suddenly stands up, posture. 

I agree and have seen those, sometimes as a prelude to a confrontation, sometimes as an alert until the thing that brings that alert is identified. And, it can happen 20 or 30 feet away from me. And what if I do that to Shadow? And he was not the aggressor? Then, I have not only punished the wrong dog but I have punished for giving a warning, if he even sees it as a punishment. As an immobilization technique, I have then placed him in harm's way, which ruins my "I am your protector and leader" points.

Sometimes, ala the non-linear theory, dogs may do that to guage each other's tolerance level and then back down. In which case you don't know until the microsecond before a lunge.

Those who don't have enough experience dealing with loose, aggressive dogs coming after you should try walking in my town. And I don't think anyone has come up with an answer supporting the alpha roll of a strange, aggressing dog, yet. And I'm not talking about the Pekinese. I am talk about a 90 lb GSD mix and a 120 lb Yellow Lab who's thick leather collar broke off in his owner's hand. In the latter case, the best the owner could was get his dog in a bear hug while we got away but there was no pinning and rolling that dog. And his owner didn't weigh much more than him (a high school athlete with tremendous strength). And the dog didn't bite his owner because he knew him and this hold was after the initiation of attack, not prior to or at the start.

Other times, in public, when someone else's dog keys off on Shadow, I don't wait for the bad thing to happen. I get us behind a car or obstacle where Shadow can't be seen, giving the other dog a chance to relax since the stimulus is no longer in view.

snownose

Benedict

The dog could be submitting in that instance, saying "ok, you win this time because it doesn't matter enough to me"...that isn't changing the dog's overall view of his relationship with his owner, just picking his battles.  At worst, the logical result is that the dog is biding his time until something DOES matter enough not to submit, and injuries happen.

 

Couldn't that be said about Dunbar's "Gentling" technique?

Yep.

spiritdogs

Benedict

I thought the point was to make the dog submit?  Which yes, will appear to calm the dog - they submit, they stop struggling....but submission doesn't equal calm.  Giving in doesn't mean the dog is not nervous or even terrified inside, it only means they have realised that showing those feelings on the outside earns them physical discipline (whether gentle or not). 

Is that not the same as extinguishing a growl? 

 

Great observation, and I think you are correct.  Some dogs will accept physical "discipline" for a while, then suddenly decide that they need to tell you that they've had quite enough thanks.  When that happens with a large powerful breed, it isn't pretty.  And, if the dog feels he can't nail the trainer, and redirects on someone else, like his owner or a bystander, that really isn't pretty.

I think both of you are describing what takes place in a vet clinic when force is used on a dog to perform a medical procedure and requiring the dog to remain still.  I can see a dog not letting go of the nervousness and terrified feeling in that situation.  It is a different situation when the dog has a trusting relationship with the owner.  I feel a Marvin story coming on.

Ron, these dogs that you run into, are they just loose dogs from nowhere, or are you walking by their property?

Sometimes, Tanner is the only one outside within the fenced in area, and he will go all the way to the back kennels by the wooded area....our neighbor has a couple of Aussies, and they like coming on our property....even though Tanner is the only one seeing those dogs at the time, he goes off like a rocket and would try to chase off those dogs all on his own.

If a dog had a trusting relationship with the owner, there would be no need for an alpha roll.  I can calm Ben's mind when I notice his getting out of control by calling him back from the situation, asking for a behaviour and then giving him an on-the-spot massage.  Chaos is cured, without the need to physically put him into a submissive position....because he trusts that the decisions I am making for him are the right ones. 

The difference is, with my technique there is no danger that any wrong signals will be sent, since I am allowing Ben to make the choices needed to get into a calm place.  Physically rolling him denies him the choice, and ups the chances that signals will be misread. 

I, too, agree that the gentling technique may or may not have a lasting effect. It would depend on the dog.

What I do know is that it is easier to identify a reward and lead to that, which can allow other behaviors to extinguish. I think +P or classical conditioning have their uses but eventually, you still end up having to find out what the dog is driving toward. Some dogs may respond to gentling or alpha rolling as puppies and never offer another problem again. Others may change their minds in adolescence, once they realize they can run faster than you. Then, either they struggle against the pin and or roll or they calmly wait it out and then, upon release, take off. The fastest human can run around 20 mph. Most dogs, including medium ones, can run over 20 mph. And the human running 20 mph is on the straight leg of a specially designed track of cedar and cork. That's a different environment than a house full of obstacles or an ordinary backyard or even, dog park.

It seems to me that results are mixed, at best.

snownose

Ron, these dogs that you run into, are they just loose dogs from nowhere, or are you walking by their property

We live in town, with a modicum of civilization. Paved streets, street lights, a couple of police officers.

With the Lab, we were walking down the street and one of the owner's friends let the dog out of the yard.

With the GSD mix, we were nearly 1/8 of a mile away and he saw us and came charging down the street, piloerected, teeth bared, he was defending his 4 acres of town where other people live, including the intersection we were actually in. I've noticed loose dogs can range up to about 4 acres. These are dogs owned by people. Can anyone here say that they would AR these dogs and have it work as an effective punishment against further infractions? And what is the timing? What are you punishing and when and remember that a dog can change from second to second.

And what if these dogs were "gentled" as puppies? How's that working out, now?

I think it's fine if the conversation drifts a little this way, as I think we're still talking about the purpose and effectiveness.

How could the apha roll even be brought into a situation with loose dogs?

Ron, you say you clicker train, could you trust your dog off leash and you not being around anywhere? Could you guarantee what his actions would be based on the fact that you clicker train?

I have a question for those that do support the alpha roll, I am genuinely curious about the answer....

If the worst case scenario happened, and you rolled a dog and it did fight back and seriously injure you, would you ever be able to look at your dog in the same way?  Would your attitude towards the dog change, or would your training methods change?  What would be the next step for you?

I ask because if Ben were to seriously injure me...as in, I needed multiple stitches or even plastic surgery, I am not sure I would ever be able to look at him the same way.  I'm not even sure that I'd be able to continue owning him, because I'm not one for living in fear.  Obviously it would depend on the circumstances, and maybe it makes me a less than dedicated dog owner...but I do everything possible to avoid it happening because I know myself, and how I'd feel if it did happen. 

Benedict

If a dog had a trusting relationship with the owner, there would be no need for an alpha roll. 

Correct but in building that trusting relationship in different settings, it may be necessary.  In Marvin's first session of Clicker Training, beginning obedience, there were 40+ dogs and there were quite a few dogs that were quite excited and out of control, including the worst of bunch - Marvin.  The instructor had us put our dogs to the floor and he would instruct us on massaging the dog.  I guess I did an "alpha roll" along with others and held Marvin down so I could apply the massage technique.  I believe doing the force holddown and then what I did afterwards, strengthened my trusting relationship with Marvin.  The next time Marvin gets in that state he will remember this experience and "not turn on his owner".