The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

And I just said in a recent post that I don't take mine to a dog park either.  However, IF I did, or in the scenerio I laid out walking in town.  When my dogs are under perfect control and a loose dog has a wild hair and wants to fight......how would folks handle that?  Would you alpha roll a strange and agressive dog to protect your own?

spiritdogs

I guess the thing that bothers me about this the most is the idea that we must "win confrontations" with dogs. 

I didn't say we must. Like you, I don't even like the idea of confrontations with dogs. I was simply stating my opinion about the idea (assumption) that the dog will "win" in an alpha roll situation because the human will get bitten and back off.

Many people who are against alpha rolling say that it's because a human will get bitten and "lose". All I'm saying is that getting hurt does not equate with losing (except in the sense that you indicated, which I agree with).

Surly? That's an emotion, right? An assumptive one at that. It has no place in a properly -executed alpha roll.

glenmar

Would you alpha roll a strange and agressive dog to protect your own?

Absolutely not. I would kick its ass, though. I wouldn't alpha roll it because I have no interest in taking a chance with my limbs to calm it down. It's not my dog. I would be interested in communicating to it: "Get away from me and my dog"!  

glenmar

And I just said in a recent post that I don't take mine to a dog park either.  However, IF I did, or in the scenerio I laid out walking in town.  When my dogs are under perfect control and a loose dog has a wild hair and wants to fight......how would folks handle that?  Would you alpha roll a strange and agressive dog to protect your own?

No, I would not alpha roll a strange and aggressive dog....I would try a body block and hopefully the charging dog would stop.....if that was not helping then I would have to try to break up the fight....and I mean I would go full out to break whatever is taking place, that includes hurting the other dog to protect mine.....

glenmar

Ron, there are signs that are pretty easy to pick up on once you know what to look for.....the ear set, the way the tail is held, the little patch of hair on the neck that suddenly stands up, posture.  If you'd like more information, feel free to pm me and I'l be happy to share in a calmer environment.

From my experience and observation it is the other dog that has control over the situation.  It is the other dog’s reaction to the calming signals sent by the dog that most people focus on.  The other dog is going to ignore, match, escalate, or appease.  I find my Great Danes are ideally suited to be the first greeter of a new foster.  Their giant physique naturally responds as an appeasement signal.  To greet another dog, they must bow their heads or stoop.  My Danes have a lot a lot of confidence in meeting any dog with any varying temperament.  Now when introducing the remaining pack to the new dog, I watch the new foster dogs closely to see the reaction of the other fosters.  The new foster dog is now the greeter.

Added:  Just read Glenmar's subsequent post and the above is still valid.  IMO, her latest example makes no sense because what lonely dog would go up against 450lbs of dogs.  No matter what the human thinks, dog's greeting protocals will always take place.

Actually, David this DID happen and just this week.  I handled the situation, but I'd like to know how others would.  And certainly if the alpha roll is such a valuable tool, if it could be used on a strange dog to protect my own.  There was NO greeting protocal.  At all.  Just a rush, a lunge and my reaction.

FWIW, three german shepherds don't weight 450 lbs.   Breed standard calls for 65-90 lbs and all of mine fit into that range, with the possible exception of Thor who is a bit larger boned.

DPU

ron2

So, do you alpha roll your dogs preemptively to stop a fight you think they might get into? How can you tell when that's going to happen? I have to admit that I'm not that good. It would explain why I can handle only one dog and one cat.

glenmar

Ron, there are signs that are pretty easy to pick up on once you know what to look for.....the ear set, the way the tail is held, the little patch of hair on the neck that suddenly stands up, posture.  If you'd like more information, feel free to pm me and I'l be happy to share in a calmer environment.

From my experience and observation it is the other dog that has control over the situation.  It is the other dog’s reaction to the calming signals sent by the dog that most people focus on.  The other dog is going to ignore, match, escalate, or appease.  I find my Great Danes are ideally suited to be the first greeter of a new foster.  Their giant physique naturally responds as an appeasement signal.  To greet another dog, they must bow their heads or stoop.  My Danes have a lot a lot of confidence in meeting any dog with any varying temperament.  Now when introducing the remaining pack to the new dog, I watch the new foster dogs closely to see the reaction of the other fosters.  The new foster dog is now the greeter.

 

In your situation, that is probably true.  But, in my experience, the balance can shift.  A dog that has always been the greeter can suddenly become the greetee (for lack of a real word), depending on the dog he is meeting.  I do notice that, with the Danes in my play group, there is somewhat of a calming effect related to size as you describe it.  But, believe me, we have one that will play bow, and if the other dog is nervous, will then scrunch himself down into a lower than low little Great Dane puddle on the floor trying to show how non-threatening he is.  He usually gets even the tiny dogs to play with him;-)

For the record, I have not taken my dogs to dog parks either, since I run a supervised play group and have other options for exercising them outdoors.  I heard that our ACO is planning one, though. 

glenmar

Actually, David this DID happen and just this week.  I handled the situation, but I'd like to know how others would.  And certainly if the alpha roll is such a valuable tool, if it could be used on a strange dog to protect my own.  There was NO greeting protocal.  At all.  Just a rush, a lunge and my reaction.

FWIW, three german shepherds don't weight 450 lbs.   Breed standard calls for 65-90 lbs and all of mine fit into that range, with the possible exception of Thor who is a bit larger boned.

FWIW, I am relating my experience/observation and 3 Great Danes do weight 450lbs. 

I don't know if I missed it in one of your posts but how did you handle the situation.  I can't image one dog going up against a pack of 3.  It was a greeting and even though I don't know your story, my guess is you interferred with a very natural greeting between one dog and a pack. 

BTW, the conversation about alpha rolling a dog before or during is just silly talk in my opinion.  No reason or cause to do it before.  Dangerous to do it during a fight plus the other dog would join in and view the situation as a group "attack".  The whole point of doing an alpha roll is to change the dog's state of mind from chaos to calm.

spiritdogs

But, believe me, we have one that will play bow, and if the other dog is nervous, will then scrunch himself down into a lower than low little Great Dane puddle on the floor trying to show how non-threatening he is.  He usually gets even the tiny dogs to play with him;-)

Sure I believe this and I have one that will do this because Petro's joy in life is to play with other dogs and will do anything to get a dog to play with him.  My experience with Danes is that they each have very different temperaments.  I have one that is agile, rough, bitey, and gets very excited.  Another that redefines the term calm and the last, that just wants to play.  The combination of the 3 as a pack has a very strong influence on any dog that comes to my house.  That is why I introduce a new foster in a two tier process where the new foster is a greetee and then a greeter.

No, I did not interfer with a natural dog greeting.  A natural dog greeting does NOT including a charging, growling, snarling, tooth displaying dog, ears back, hair up, and tail stiff.  This was not a greeting.  It was a straight out attack.  I have been around dogs for enough years to know the difference. There was also similar body language happening with MY dogs to know that this was not a casual encounter.

What I did or did NOT do, didn't include an alpha roll and my question has been answered by at least a couple folks.  I'd still like to hear from those who really think that the alpha roll is a good solution though.

DPU

The whole point of doing an alpha roll is to change the dog's state of mind from chaos to calm.

 

I thought the point was to make the dog submit?  Which yes, will appear to calm the dog - they submit, they stop struggling....but submission doesn't equal calm.  Giving in doesn't mean the dog is not nervous or even terrified inside, it only means they have realised that showing those feelings on the outside earns them physical discipline (whether gentle or not). 

Is that not the same as extinguishing a growl? 

DPU

BTW, the conversation about alpha rolling a dog before or during is just silly talk in my opinion.  No reason or cause to do it before.  Dangerous to do it during a fight plus the other dog would join in and view the situation as a group "attack".  The whole point of doing an alpha roll is to change the dog's state of mind from chaos to calm.

And let me add that since the contrary state of mind are side by side, the dog will know which feels better.  Dogs will always select pleasure over displeasure.

glenmar

What I did or did NOT do, didn't include an alpha roll and my question has been answered by at least a couple folks.  I'd still like to hear from those who really think that the alpha roll is a good solution though.

I do find it very interesting that you had an experience like that....so, I would really like to know how you handled it....only because, I have never run into a situation like that......loose dogs usually run away when they see some of my dogs......

Four, I'll keep this brief because I don't want to derail, but I don't define losing as taking a bite. (And spiritdogs, the reason I'm speaking of winning and losing is that a person ARing an aggressive dog is thinking and acting along those lines).

I guess I have either a different idea of the average human's abilities or a different idea of the lengths to which an aggressive dog would go. In a physical confrontation with an aggressive dog, I make the assumption that it continues until one party is forced to back down. How many bites can a person take? Isn't there a reason dogs are a deterrent to crime? Ivan could have, and perhaps would have, killed me. He was just under 70 lbs. And yes, I've had strangers tell me in casual conversation that they could have rolled him and gotten him to behave. (Macho men who probably never met a truly aggressive dog in their lives.  The "I rolled my friend's golden retriever" people.)

A determined dog of decent size is a serious threat to human safety.  

Ending hijack.  

Benedict

I thought the point was to make the dog submit?  Which yes, will appear to calm the dog - they submit, they stop struggling....but submission doesn't equal calm.  Giving in doesn't mean the dog is not nervous or even terrified inside, it only means they have realised that showing those feelings on the outside earns them physical discipline (whether gentle or not). 

Is that not the same as extinguishing a growl? 

This is the opposite of CM dog philosphy and Espencer would be better to respond to this.  From CM's book, "We've already established that dogs do not desire to live in a democracy.  They also do not always equate submissiveness with weakness.  I like to explain dog submission as open-mindedness.  A submissive animal is open and willing to take direction from a more dominant one.  In humans, open-mindedness creates the willingness and possibility to learn and take in new information."  He also distinguishes between submission and being subservient.

I have the tendency to agree with CM definition of submissiveness in a dog to dog relationship.  But when it comes to human to dog relationship I think its not the same thing.  Plus since the human can give a dog more pleasures than a dog can, sometimes I think the dog is just clever to perform a behavior just to get a belly rub.