The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

sillysally

I never said what you did with your dogs was bad.  I understand your being defensive, but I believe your aggression in this case is misdirected.

I appreciate that you understand my being defensive. I tried very hard not to get defensive in this thread and it appears I failed a time or two. I'm sorry.   My "aggression" was misdirected. Oops!

ron2

espencer

No, you are not going to perform an alpha roll while in the middle of a dog fight, thats suicidal, you could do it after to help the dog become calm

CM has done it, on camera.

I agree, he has done it after he separates the dogs, i have never seen that he is performing the alpha roll while the other dog is still attacking, did you?

ron2

As opposed to the prong, GL, EW, equipment that only tightens or exerts pressure based on what the dog is doing. The dog then learns by walking or behaving a certain way, that pressure is gone.

There, there, you have it again!, explaining what the alpha roll is, once the dog learns to behave in a certain way the pressure is gone, once the dog is calm again the human releases the dog, good job Ron! 

No, you are not going to perform an alpha roll while in the middle of a dog fight, thats suicidal, you could do it after to help the dog become calm

For a punishment to be effective, it needs to be pretty immediate.  What's the sense of alpha rolling a dog that has already terminated a fight.  Are you punishing him for stopping?????  Believe it or not, some dogs will interpret that way, and the next fight they get into when a human is around will be pretty darn nasty.  I didn't see the CM clip, but if you post it here, we can all take a look. 

.:.

lostcoyote

it actually needs to be more than just pretty immediate. it needs to happen during the assertion signals before a fight even breaks out..... and that requires tuning in (instead of chatting with your buddies) where situations (such as dog parks) require it

Excellent post.......don't let it get to a fight......the signals are there........people need to learn how to read their dogs......

You are both correct that pre-empting the fight is the best course, but you hardly need an alpha roll to do that, if you are sufficiently observant.  That's when a good "leave it", "watch" or recall is very valuable.  Personally, I would not take any dog that isn't fluent in  those skills to a dog park.

.:.

espencer

have never seen that he is performing the alpha roll while the other dog is still attacking, did you

He wades into the fray and no, doesn't pin the dog while it is actually being bit by the other dog. But he takes the offender and pins them. FWIW he's been bitten more often by the smaller dogs than usually the big dogs. Do you watch the show? It's usually on NGC.

espencer

There, there, you have it again!, explaining what the alpha roll is, once the dog learns to behave in a certain way the pressure is gone, once the dog is calm again the human releases the dog, good job Ron!

Wrong, and you're being cheeky doesn't prove your point.

lostcoyote

sd: "you are both correct that pre-empting the fight is the best course, but you hardly need an alpha roll to do that, if you are sufficiently observant.

neither one of us said you need to alpha roll a dog giving of assertion signals, did we?

That wasn't necessary. She was agreeing with you that premptive action is better. And she wasn't saying that you pin your dog preemptively. The thread is about the roll and someone else just responded. She only said that it wasn't necessary to use it preemptively when other training and cues do work fine. She didn't say that you were using that. Unless you are. In which case, she's only expressing an opinion on it's usefulness. So, do you alpha roll your dogs preemptively to stop a fight you think they might get into? How can you tell when that's going to happen? I have to admit that I'm not that good. It would explain why I can handle only one dog and one cat.

Dog_ma

I suppose a someone with mad ninja skills could get away with alpha rolling aggressive dogs, but ...  to borrow a line from Top Gun, don't let your ego write checks your body can't cash. If a good sized dog decides to fight back, good luck winning.

See, I have a disagreement with this. My husband and I both believe that in the vast majority of cases, if a person came up against a dog in a pure match of physical strength, the person WOULD, in fact, "win". People think of "winning" as not getting bitten. But if a person is determined to win and does not let a bite from a dog make him stop fighting for his life, then he would go on to "win" by stopping the dog from killing him. In other words, the person, determined not to give up after being bitten, would come out alive, and therefore win.

Of course, there may be exceptions for an individual, particularly-determined schutzhund-trained or personal protection-trained dog, who is also very determined to "win", but even then, without going into gruesome detail, there are plenty of things a human can do to stop a dog, even if he has his jaws clenched around your forearm. And of course, there may not be much of a contest with a trained GSD against a weak old lady, but for the vast majority of situations where a dog and human compete in a contest of strength, a fight, the human being would come out alive, if "hurt", simply because he has reasoning and logic on his side and opposable thumbs. A dog in this state is running on pure instinct and possibly some training.

This may not seem to be on topic, but I believe it is, as many people don't think alpha rolling is possible or plausible because the human might get hurt (the assumption being that the the dog would "win";), and my point is that a bite from a dog doesn't necessarily mean that the dog wins or that the human loses. Only if the human gives up after being bitten.

As an aside, I've seen Cesar Milan get bitten many times. And he "won" the confrontations.

I'm not advocating alpha rolling, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in about this (I believe) mistaken belief that a bite means you lose. 

I doubt that there would be much disagreement that standing around chatting and paying no mind to your dogs at the dog park is about on the same level as taking 20 kids 10 and under to Walmart and turning them loose to play while you shop.  Both happen though and it's not much fun for the innocent bystander in either case.

I'm not clear on what is being said either.  It sounded very much like a preemptive alpha roll was to be used to prevent a fight?  To me that doesn't make sense.  But I control my dogs with my voice and not my brute strength....which is a good thing because I don't have much of that.  Surely if I were foolish enough to go to a dog park I wouldn't want to AR someone ELSES agressive dog?  I guess I'm just not at all clear what the point was?

Ron, there are signs that are pretty easy to pick up on once you know what to look for.....the ear set, the way the tail is held, the little patch of hair on the neck that suddenly stands up, posture.  If you'd like more information, feel free to pm me and I'l be happy to share in a calmer environment.

ron2

How can you tell when that's going to happen? I have to admit that I'm not that good. It would explain why I can handle only one dog and one cat.

The minute one gets two dogs together the dynamics change.......body language, and the other things Glenda mentioned are there.

Everything changes again if dog number three is introduced, and then dog number four......one has to be able to read a dog pretty well  to stop a fight. 

FourIsCompany

Dog_ma

I suppose a someone with mad ninja skills could get away with alpha rolling aggressive dogs, but ...  to borrow a line from Top Gun, don't let your ego write checks your body can't cash. If a good sized dog decides to fight back, good luck winning.

 

See, I have a disagreement with this. My husband and I both believe that in the vast majority of cases, if a person came up against a dog in a pure match of physical strength, the person WOULD, in fact, "win". People think of "winning" as not getting bitten. But if a person is determined to win and does not let a bite from a dog make him stop fighting for his life, then he would go on to "win" by stopping the dog from killing him. In other words, the person, determined not to give up after being bitten, would come out alive, and therefore win.

Of course, there may be exceptions for an individual, particularly-determined schutzhund-trained or personal protection-trained dog, who is also very determined to "win", but even then, without going into gruesome detail, there are plenty of things a human can do to stop a dog, even if he has his jaws clenched around your forearm. And of course, there may not be much of a contest with a trained GSD against a weak old lady, but for the vast majority of situations where a dog and human compete in a contest of strength, a fight, the human being would come out alive, if "hurt", simply because he has reasoning and logic on his side and opposable thumbs. A dog in this state is running on pure instinct and possibly some training.

This may not seem to be on topic, but I believe it is, as many people don't think alpha rolling is possible or plausible because the human might get hurt (the assumption being that the the dog would "win";), and my point is that a bite from a dog doesn't necessarily mean that the dog wins or that the human loses. Only if the human gives up after being bitten.

As an aside, I've seen Cesar Milan get bitten many times. And he "won" the confrontations.

I'm not advocating alpha rolling, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in about this (I believe) mistaken belief that a bite means you lose. 

I guess the thing that bothers me about this the most is the idea that we must "win confrontations" with dogs.  Why are humans so surly about all this?  Frankly, if we are the ones with the more developed brains, we ought to be able to structure things, most of the time, so that the dog never gets the idea that life with humans is about confrontation at all.  Leadership is not about winning, it's about inspiring someone (or in this case, a dog) to willingly follow.  Do trainers get bitten?  Yes, but good trainers don't get bitten very often.  I agree that getting bitten doesn't automatically mean that the trainer is at fault, but it does mean that you and the dog lose - you've just given Fido a "bite history" or another mark on his bite history - and once that happens it can't be taken back.  I consider that to be a loss of sorts. Much better to avoid triggering a dog to that bite threshold, and to work toward a more successful conclusion in the relationship. 

I personally don't think it's all that hard to read a dogs body language, but you do have to know what you're looking for.  However, maybe that's just me.....maybe it IS more difficult for others.  But I wouldn't use an alpha roll on one of my OWN dogs, who I know well, so I certainly wouldn't want to try one on a strange agressing dog at a dog park, or even on the street.

Suppose that I'm out walking my usual 3 dogs in town.  A loose dog charges.  What would others do in THAT situation?  Lets suppose that I can control MY dogs, but the loose one is bent on a fight and attacks.........

I happen to be a person who doesn't believe in taking dogs to a dog park......all I can do is control my animals, I can not control all other animals....too many variables in a dog park situation.