The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Thank you.

glenmar

See, we come again to the defination of words that are loaded and have somewhat different meanings to everyone. 

Exactly. That's why it's important that we use more words than "force" to say what we mean.

glenmar

I don't like using violence (force) against my animals. 

So, to you, violence and force mean the same thing. To many, they are worlds apart. Some of us don't connect the negative images of violence to the word force.

glenmar

I have taught my dogs from the moment that they entered my home that being handled isn't a bad thing

So have I. Being handled, touched, manipulated, pushed aside and moved by my hands or my other body parts is not a bad thing to my dogs at all. Even being held by my arms/hands when they'd rather go do something else is not a bad thing.

I have no interest in bashing you. *self-edit* And as has been said, if you believe in your methods you should be able to stand behind them and stand up to questions about them.

And whether you have been brave enough to come right out and say it forthrightly, as some have, it seems to me that you believe I am violent with my dogs. That's okay, but you are not being "bashed", so much as being asked to explain just how the use of a prong collar isn't forcing the dog, which I believe is a very valid question, as it seems to be an inconsistency.

I understand your definition of force as "brute force and violence", but I don't agree. That's okay.

glenmar

Alpha rolls and brute force have no place in my home.  Period.

They have no place in mine, either.  

espencer

Actually an alpha roll is applied ONLY to aggressive dogs that might cause harm, therefore the last thing the dogs are trying to avoid is confrontation (they are actually looking for confrontation), no body does alpha rolls to scared dogs, thats an ignorant thing to do

 See, this is exactly the sort of alpha roll that I think you should only do if you're looking for an excuse to have plastic surgery, and want insurance to foot the bill.

I suppose a someone with mad ninja skills could get away with alpha rolling aggressive dogs, but ...  to borrow a line from Top Gun, don't let your ego write checks your body can't cash. If a good sized dog decides to fight back, good luck winning.

Hmmmm, which is exactly why I didn't post my defination earlier.  Another picked apart post.

If it makes you feel better, I'll concede that by your defination of force, then yes, at ONE time I felt the need to use a prong with Thor.    Happy now?

And I have not said anything about your methods, so I'd really appreciate not being called a coward or anyone putting words in my mouth.  I have not said anything because frankly, I don't care what methods you use.  They don't impact me or my dogs in the least.

Admin speaking...

I do not see any bashing in this thread...I do see a lot of sniping which can stop or be taken to PM.  Thank you.   

 Sorry to be OT, but I think that our OP now has the best siggie on the forum - what a gorgeous head shot!!!!  And, a testament to the fact that we are still talking about sentient creatures, and need to treat them accordingly.

Agreed.  It is a great shot.  And a testament.

espencer

ron2

For one thng, a prong, properly fitted, is -R. That is, it doesn't actively cause pain. It only provides some pressure and it releases when the dog quits

 

(emphasis added)

Ron, believe it or not, you just described what an alpha roll is

I disagree. An alpha roll is +P applied by the human as an active application of force designed to immobilize or correct the dog. It may later turn into -R, that is, the dog relaxes the human releases.

A prong only tightens pressure when the dog pulls. The dog controls the pressure on the collar by their own behavior. They teach themselves to not pull in order to have the prong be loose.

Dog_ma

See, this is exactly the sort of alpha roll that I think you should only do if you're looking for an excuse to have plastic surgery, and want insurance to foot the bill.

Common sense, i dont blame you for thinking this way since for some of us, some of the facts are just natural common sense, no, you are not going to wrestle an unleashed human aggressive dog down to the ground with an alpha roll, thats suicidal

No, you are not going to perform an alpha roll while in the middle of a dog fight, thats suicidal, you could do it after to help the dog become calm

Just like i said 2 alpha roll threads ago, an alpha roll is like when you hug a friend to calm him/her down because he/she is ready to get into a fist fight with somebody else (no, i'm not saying that you should hug your dog in a situation like that, you dont need to hug the dog to do an alpha roll), are you harming your friend by doing that? are you hurting his/her feelings? is he/her less of a friend now that you did that?

And finally, common sense again, you dont do an alpha roll if you dont know what you are doing because probably you will be end up doing it wrong and would get you bitten 

Alpha Roll:

Purpose: Help your dog to become calm after being on an aggressive, almost/or ready to kill state of mind  (not to show him you are the boss) 

Effectiveness: If you know how to do it right i would say 99.9% of the times is effective 

ron2

The dog controls the pressure on the collar by their own behavior. They teach themselves to not pull in order to have the prong be loose.

There it is again!, just change the word "collar" and "prong" for "alpha roll" and you just explained the mechanics of it, thats exactly what it is

espencer

Alpha Roll:

Purpose: Help your dog to become calm after being on an aggressive, almost/or ready to kill state of mind  (not to show him you are the boss) 

Effectiveness: If you know how to do it right i would say 99.9% of the times is effective 

If the dog is not in that state of mind mostly sure you dont need an alpha roll to make him/her listen to what you want to communicate

This is really great. Especially after learning everything I have from this thread. I know there have been others before, but some members are new  (like me) and haven't participated in these threads very much. Now that I have, and know that I have never done an alpha roll, I probably won't participate in them in the future. At least not in the same way I did in this one.

espencer

Effectiveness: If you know how to do it right i would say 99.9% of the times is effective 

There is absolutely NO way of knowing whether this is true, just like there is no way of saying, definitively, that it's never effective.  Made up statistics only serve to blur the issue, IMHO.  Not any kind of real help to anyone.   

Benedict

There is absolutely NO way of knowing whether this is true, just like there is no way of saying, definitively, that it's never effective.  Made up statistics only serve to blur the issue, IMHO.  Not any kind of real help to anyone.

Well it seems that we will have to agree on disagree here  

espencer

No, you are not going to perform an alpha roll while in the middle of a dog fight, thats suicidal, you could do it after to help the dog become calm

CM has done it, on camera.

espencer

"collar" and "prong" for "alpha roll" and you just explained the mechanics of it, thats exactly what it is

No. A pin, or collar pop, is a +P applied and controlled by the human. A prong or GL is a -R controlled by the dog. Both are methods that involve a force. What the force means to the dog is what would be different. If there were a harness that pinned and rolled the dog by itself at the end of the leash, then it would be a process controlled by the dog. But, since the pin and roll is directly applied at the discretion of the human and ends when the human perceives a change in the dog, then it is a positive punishment, even if the viewpoint of the human is "I'll stop when you stop."

As opposed to the prong, GL, EW, equipment that only tightens or exerts pressure based on what the dog is doing. The dog then learns by walking or behaving a certain way, that pressure is gone.

If an alpha roll is so easy to mess up, and so dangerous when you do, then what's the use of it? It's not like it's something you want to be practicing on pretend dogs or non-aggressive dogs. How did CM learn how to do it 'right'? Was he born with the knowledge? Did he start on old toothless dogs? Did he just get bitten and learn from it? IMO, dogs are domestic and particularly easy to handle in most cases. Nonetheless, they have some formidable teeth, so any method that brings someone to a point where a dog is likely to use those teeth on them is unnecessary and dangerous. They're just dogs. I've been charged and got out of it by backing off. I've been lunged at and got out of it by dodging. I wouldn't have been either if I'd seen the dog before it acted because I would have seen the signs and stayed out of range. What's the excuse for provoking an attack that you can't defuse by dodging or backing away? Why roll and risk plastic surgery when you can back away and not provoke at all? I know people who handle deadly snakes. They don't stay alive by provoking attacks, but they still have to handle the snakes.

FourIsCompany

Good morning everyone.

sillysally

I don't think that anyone is denying that dogs are physical, I just think that the issue here is one of "good touch, bad touch."

 

And is that something that you (and others here who wish to make me out to be an abuser) can measure objectively, considering you know practically nothing about me, my dogs, our environment, etc.? Sure, many of you are willing to make that judgment against me, that I touch my dogs in a "bad" way. But from my position, it's a seriously subjective judgment from a fairly righteous pedestal. 

You'll notice that my comment was not referring or responding to you or your dogs.  I never passed any judgment against you.  I never said what you did with your dogs was bad.  I understand your being defensive, but I believe your aggression in this case is misdirected.

spiritdogs

 Sorry to be OT, but I think that our OP now has the best siggie on the forum - what a gorgeous head shot!!!!  And, a testament to the fact that we are still talking about sentient creatures, and need to treat them accordingly.

Thanks!  DH took the photo, so I will pass the positive reenforcement along to him....