The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

silverserpher

**content removed, previously edited content**

Almost all the time, I was not trying to cause pain. Only once, did I do a forceful alpha roll and it still didn't do what I thought it would do. Technically, for a punishment to be effective, it should accomplish the cessation of a behavior after the first, maybe the second application.

Plus, I assumed that the dog would "submit" as it would to momma dog, thinking that momma dog actively alpha rolls pups. I'm more convinced that it's Momma dog teaching how to play.  In any case, for my dog, it was a reinforcer, not a punisher.

So, in a way, I did do it wrong. But I think this whole thread has been to see if there is a right time and way to do it, or not.

But, yeah, I probably wasn't holding my tongue right.

silverserpher

**content removed, previously edited content**

Well if i was using a clicker to teach my dog how to sit on command and she never learned, what would you accuse me for?

Ron, yes, i dont ask you because actually you DO have some experience about it, you have been there, you dont talk based on other people's opinion or assumptions and thats why i consider that your opinion does count

Did you do it correctly?, maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you never felt comfortable doing it and therefore that technique was not for you but at least you tried, some people seem to be so sure about what happens, the outcome, etc. and they never even tried it!!, how can i listen the opinion of those people? what do you think is their credibility on this specific subject when they make such assumptions?

silverserpher

ron2

Well, no one asked me, but it is an interesting question.

I used to alpha roll a number of times but I didn't keep count. Many would be as accurate as I can remember. I also remember that it didn't accomplish what I thought it would.

 

**content removed, previously edited content**
 

**content removed, baiting/off topic**

ron2

Well, no one asked me, but it is an interesting question.

I used to alpha roll a number of times but I didn't keep count. Many would be as accurate as I can remember. I also remember that it didn't accomplish what I thought it would.

Ron, respectfully, I am asking why you felt you needed to alpha roll that many times?

Did something go wrong in adjusting Shadow to his new home when you adopted him?

espencer

Maybe you should read and watch his videos, he is controversial because there are people who dont like that their favorite trainer is not as successful, that sine CM does not use their favorite techniques they always seeing him with a negative closed mind

I think you're rather mistaken in this belief. I disliked Cesar Milan's methods before I ever even HEARD of positive training, before I talked to anyone on here, before I read any Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell, or Ian Dunbar books..before I knew anything about dog training, basically. Why? Because my dog has a very sensitive trachea, and "checking" her makes her cough for ten minutes. Plus if I correct her, or punish her in any way in the presence of one of her triggers, it makes her more aggressive, right that second and next time too. All I get out of watching Cesar is "correct, correct, correct", and that simply does NOT work for Cherokee. So I started reading up on other methods, and lo and behold, there's a way to train dogs WITHOUT injuring them or making them more aggressive. Who knew!

And Alpha Rolls...good grief. A couple years after I got Cherokee, I read an old school training book that suggested Alpha rolls..tried it once, got growled at (only time she's EVER actually growled at ME in the 8 YEARS I've had her), and that was that. Backing off at that point didn't make her more aggressive towards me or anyone else. I just quickly learned that was NOT the thing to do. And with Cherokee, it's NOT. I'm not one to generalize much..it may work for other dogs, I've only got the one, what do I know..but for her? It doesn't work. No way.

Positive trainers don't have TV shows (or at least not popular ones) for a very simple reason. Positive training is not about super quick results, it's about results that LAST. Doesn't make for good TV. Cesar does. He seems to get results very quickly. People like that. The question is whether his results last, and at what cost they come.

snownose

I am asking why you felt you needed to alpha roll that many times

Why does anyone need to? Why does anyone need to justify using it even if they don't use it themselves?

Suffice it to say, as espencer notes, I have actually done it, with a dog that is not small.

But the thinking at the time I was doing it was along the lines of I must show that I am the alpha, the pack leader, I am the dominant one. Sound familiar?

 Spence what about all the people who used to be huge Cesar fans but then changed their minds?

ron2

snownose

I am asking why you felt you needed to alpha roll that many times

 

Why does anyone need to? Why does anyone need to justify using it even if they don't use it themselves?

Suffice it to say, as espencer notes, I have actually done it, with a dog that is not small.

But the thinking at the time I was doing it was along the lines of I must show that I am the alpha, the pack leader, I am the dominant one. Sound familiar?

 

 

Yes, we have spoken several times in the past....do you remember that I alpha rolled on a regular basis?.....I mean, I am just asking.....

snownose

spiritdogs

Also, if you don't think dogs can figure out that a click predicts a reward, then how come they can understand where the treat jar is, or that the can opener sound means food.   And, you are quite correct that the dog learns to manipulate us into clicking!!!!  That's why it works - the dog is training the human - he's exhibiting the behavior that we want him to for the click - and, thus, for the rewards he hopes to get.  Better than if he were "training" us to not jerk his leash or alpha roll him.

 

Don't we have enough click and treat**content removed, previously edited content**threads alread?

I thought we are to be on topic......

This is a thread about alpha rolls, and whether they are effective.   In my opinion, their use is not based on sound science, they are unnecessarily harsh and violent, and that is why thinking people have abandoned their use in favor of other methods that not only make sense to the dogs, but keep the humans safer as well.  **content removed, argumentative**

espencer

silverserpher

**content removed, previously edited content**

Well if i was using a clicker to teach my dog how to sit on command and she never learned, what would you accuse me for?

Ron, yes, i dont ask you because actually you DO have some experience about it, you have been there, you dont talk based on other people's opinion or assumptions and thats why i consider that your opinion does count

Did you do it correctly?, maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you never felt comfortable doing it and therefore that technique was not for you but at least you tried, some people seem to be so sure about what happens, the outcome, etc. and they never even tried it!!, how can i listen the opinion of those people? what do you think is their credibility on this specific subject when they make such assumptions?

I wasn't actually questioning whether Ron did it correctly or not--I just saw this response coming from a mile away.  Espencer knew what I was talking about.  Kudos to him for modifying things a bit.   

spiritdogs

This is a thread about alpha rolls, and whether they are effective.   In my opinion, their use is not based on sound science, they are unnecessarily harsh and violent, and that is why thinking people have abandoned their use in favor of other methods that not only make sense to the dogs, but keep the humans safer as well.  **content removed, previously edited content**

So, Dunbar's "Gentling" is harsh and violent, also....correct?

My response was in reference to you going off on another wild "Clicker/Treat" connection, which happens to be the answer to anything.....and, I was pointing out we were talking about "Alpha Rolling".....**content removed, baiting**

**content removed, argumentative**

.:.

.:.

.:.