The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

.:.

Not only do I agree with Kim here, but her previous post was excellent.  No one who acclimates a puppy to all over handling as she has described is doing an "alpha roll", and for the life of me I find it really amazing that we are still discussing an outdated, ineffective, and nasty technique that even the not-so-positive Monks of New Skete have removed from their repertoire.  

Absolutely on target, both of you.

sillysally

I'm sure CM himself would tell you that what he does is not a "quick fix"

Who said anything about a "quick fix"? Not me. I said I had seen him be successful with what some call an alpha roll. That's all.   

sillysally

As far as horses and dogs, I really don't think they are all that different. 

Well, okay. You're entitled to that opinion. And since I don't know that much about horses, I'm certainly not going to argue with you. Keep in mind, though, I didn't claim they had nothing in common. I just said they were different in some very basic ways, which they are.

Kim_MacMillan

I think you'll find a lot of disagreement with you.

Really? And here I thought people had been agreeing with me this whole thread! LOL Sorry, but that just struck me as funny. Perhaps you haven't read the thread. I've been finding disagreement with me at every turn. That's good. If we all agreed, life would be pretty boring.

corvus, thanks for the explanation. :) I doubt you want my take on the pup situation so I'll just leave that one.

Chuffy

Its very controversy is an indicator that this is not all positive rainbows and kittens etc.

Very true. And I'm the last one here to claim to be "all positive" anything.  

Chuffy

"Why the hot debate?" 

That's an excellent question! In fact, I loved your whole post.  I certainly don't think there's any reason to "take the hit" for voicing your opinion. I'll stand up for your right to do that any day, even though I disagree. And I wish I could answer your question why people think it's their job to tell others how to raise their children or dogs. But I have no idea. I'm glad you are participating and I hope it can continue on an even keel if it continues at all.

Kim_MacMillan

"Forcing the dog onto its back is the equivalent of an
abusive parent beating a child to force it to say, 'I love you.'

Oh, for heaven's sake! 

glenmar

I find it really amazing that we are still discussing an outdated, ineffective, and nasty technique that even the not-so-positive Monks of New Skete have removed from their repertoire.  

We aren't. No one is discussing what the Monks described in their first book. That was determined many pages ago.  

glenmar:

I find it really amazing that we are still discussing an outdated, ineffective, and nasty technique that even the not-so-positive Monks of New Skete have removed from their repertoire.  

 

Just for the record, that was not my comment.  That was part of an included previous post.

Oh, sorry Glenda. I thought it would be in a quote box if it was from someone else's post. In any case, as far as I know, that's not what we've been discussing.

Chuffy

Hmm, that sounds to me a lot like what mudpuppy was trying to say... that it is, basically, an act of ritualistic violence/aggression.

I think 4iC has gone to great lengths to explain why and how she applies an alpha roll/puppy pin. I personally do not find her description either violent or aggressive. Some feel it is excessive and/or unnecessary. I cannot comment on that other than to say everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I read a lot of her posts and I have nothing but respect for her as a loving, intelligent and educated dog owner. If she says it works for her pack then I believe her.

FourIsCompany

Oh, for heaven's sake! 

I know! It's horrible the things we do to our dogs (yes, I'm purposely changing the meaning of your post, as a "kidding" moment.....because it can be looked at from the other side too).

But now, being totally serious....you're laughing at that quote. It's obvious that you likely have not been at the hands of (either directly or the observer of) an abusive parent who is beating their children in such ways. For that I say be very thankful, please be thankful. For those who have been there, the correlation seems a heck of a lot more potent and clear. But sometimes it takes a jaded experience to really understand it in its completion.

But yes, for the record, I did read the whole thread (I'm surprised too, considering the work load that still lies ahead of me for finals). I realize you have disagree-ers, and I was simply pointing out that what you view as successful, others view as...not so much. It really depends on the context in which you view it. I look towards the dogs emotions, body language, and reaction to the offender (I say offender not to be crude, but because in this case the dog really views Mr. Milan as an offender, for almost all of the dogs he's rolled), not just the resulting behaviour. Yes, the behaviour might have changed, but for me, I'm not a person who thinks the end justifies the means. Just because it might have changed behaviour, it doesn't mean it was right, or that it didn't change behaviour in a lot of other ways. From a person who is heavily invested in the quality of relationships, to me an Alpha Roll (the human version) is a relationship inhibitor, not a promoter. That was simply my point.

Another thought that came to mind, at least with most dogs, is that when momma dog pins a puppy, she may be showing it how to play. When the puppy rolls and appeases, she lets up. That is, she is teaching proper play and appeasement by means of -R. Being held from continuing in play until the proper play position is shown is released when proper play position is shown.

Which may also explain some confusion on the dog's part when a person tries to pin and roll a dog in the midst of a "correction". "I don't understand the human's tone because they are holding me for more play".

Just a thought.

Kim_MacMillan

It's obvious that you likely have not been at the hands of (either directly or the observer of) an abusive parent who is beating their children in such ways.

My father abused me. I used to have to hide the bloody welts on my legs in school because I was embarrassed. I went in the stall to change in gym class and wore over-sized shorts so they covered my legs. I had to get the belt and bring it to him, crying. He held one of my hands and chased me around in a circle whipping me as hard as he could, claiming, "Spare the rod, spoil the child". I made out a lot better than my brothers, though. I was sexually abused, too, at age 4-8 by my uncle and violently raped at 17 by a trusted family friend. So don't even presume to know anything about me. Because you clearly do not.

Kim_MacMillan

Just because it might have changed behaviour, it doesn't mean it was right

I'm not interested in you thinking I'm right. I honestly could not care less. Think I'm wrong, abusive, violent, offensive, whatever you wish to think. I am 50 years old and I have had a lifetime of experience. Your opinion of me and how I raise my dogs is not an issue.

ron2

Another thought that came to mind, at least with most dogs, is that when momma dog pins a puppy, she may be showing it how to play. When the puppy rolls and appeases, she lets up. That is, she is teaching proper play and appeasement by means of -R. Being held from continuing in play until the proper play position is shown is released when proper play position is shown.

Which may also explain some confusion on the dog's part when a person tries to pin and roll a dog in the midst of a "correction". "I don't understand the human's tone because they are holding me for more play".

Just a thought.

 

A thought is a thought.....all thoughts count:)

Some of the stuff I have read in this thread is right down too friggin funny.......I was the one who said I would do just about anything to save a dog........yep, including pinning an adult dog if necessary....to those who are not dealing with very iffy dogs, why come here and bash other folks who do on a regular basis.......come on...all folks who deal with tough cases on a regular basis....raise your hands.....I have seen some evidence of how some folks train their dogs, and hear how some dogs behave......I tell ya.....some people who are constantly bashing other people might want to REALLY look at their dogs and their bad behaviors....that "NEED TO BE WORKED ON"....ahem....run off, or can't be trusted off leash....think about it long and hard before you pull that arrow........end of rant.....

FourIsCompany

My father abused me. I used to have to hide the bloody welts on my legs in school because I was embarrassed. I went in the stall to change in gym class and wore over-sized shorts so they covered my legs. I had to get the belt and bring it to him, crying. He held one of my hands and chased me around in a circle whipping me as hard as he could, claiming, "Spare the rod, spoil the child". I made out a lot better than my brothers, though. I was sexually abused, too, at age 4-8 by my uncle and violently raped at 17 by a trusted family friend. So don't even presume to know anything about me. Because you clearly do not.

FourIsCompany

denise m, thank you again for reading and comprehending what I have written. It's wonderful to know that someone does.

Have to say though, this is another sign of you misunderstanding the situation I think. I'm not sure why you think that because people disagree, they haven't read or comprehended your words. I've read them. I comprehend them and understand them.  I just don't agree with them. But then I know how you feel, as there are people on here who I sometimes wonder if they even read what I write too or if they just see my name and find what they can to pick apart. ;-) So I can see it from your perspective, as I've been in that position. Heck, I live in that position on here, as most of my views go against the mainstream in terms of most things dog. *G*

snownose

come on...all folks who deal with tough cases on a regular basis....raise your hands.....

Snownose does the hand in my sig count.

Carla, so sorry to hear about your past.  For this particular technique I was shown how to do it in obedience class...that was decades ago and I paid no mind to it (how often do you have puppies).  But as recently as two months ago I witnessed how others may use this technique.  It was at a Petsmart foster dog showing and a foster, no more than 15lbs, was acting up and being aggressive to other dogs.  Two of the ladies took turn alpha rolling this dog to make the dog submit.  The dog struggled with the ladies and they got bit.  I could take no more and ended up shouting for them to just leave the dog alone, mind you we are in public.  With my knowledge of knowing how it should be done but seeing how ladies might actually do it, I say throw it out and that there must be a better way to accomplish what is needed.     

DPU

I could take no more and ended up shouting for them to just leave the dog alone, mind you we are in public.

And kudos to you for saying what was necessary. Nothing particularly against rolling, whether we do it or not, but to see the misapplication and call it to attention. That is admirable, imho.

Kim_MacMillan

I'm just surprised that somebody who experienced what you have would find it at all funny.

What I found funny was exactly what I quoted and laughed at:

Forcing the dog onto its back is the equivalent of an
abusive parent beating a child to force it to say, 'I love you.' 

The idea that this guy thinks that forcing a dog onto its back is the equivalent of an abusive parent beating a child to force it to say, "I love you" is ludicrous!  It's not equivalent at all. It's freaking comical that he would compare the two. It's, in fact, because of my experience that I find what this guy said so completely absurd.

Kim_MacMillan

I'm not sure why you think that because people disagree, they haven't read or comprehended your words.

Because they continue to use words like abuse, violence and aggressive when talking about what I have done, when it is no such thing. I don't care if people disagree, I welcome it.

I won't go into detail, but the most recent puppy I had was B'asia. I pinned her one time and in was in my arms in my chair. It was with my arms wrapped around her holding her to me and I was calm and loving toward her. When she stopped struggling, I released the hold and she licked my face and curled up and fell asleep. When I say that what I do has nothing to do with violence and people keep bringing that up, I can only assume they either think I'm lying (which is fine) or they haven't read and comprehended what I've written.

DPU, don't feel sorry about my past. It's part of what made me who I am today. I am grateful for it. Much of my strength has come from survival.  

.:.