The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    ron2
    we must be bad since we can't take in more

     

    What? What are you really saying here? I don't get it.

    ron2
    So, if we get a dog with problems, we can take the time to work them out more gently.

     

    You CAN, certainly. That's your choice. However, consider the fact that the longer time you take gently trying to move a dog past his issues, the longer time the dog spends in imbalance. If I had the opportunity to non-gently rid a dog of his issue in one fell swoop, and clear the path for a balanced future, I would do it in a heartbeat. Even if it caused the dog some pretty serious fear and discomfort in the moment.

    Which is worse? A quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress, but changes his view on the world, or months (or years) spent in fear, distress and imbalance while someone gently guides him along to eventually changing his world view?

    Who are we really considering here when we insist on taking months, even years to gently help a dog through his issues? He spends all that time in fear, imbalance, aggression, whatever, when he could have been spending it frolicking with other dogs or playing frisbee and moving around in his life without fear. Are we considering the dog? Or our own comfort level?

    I know, when I have a splinter and I ask DH to get it out, when he fiddles around being careful and "trying not to hurt me", it ends up being a lot more painful in the long run for both of us than if he had just gone in there and hurt me for a second and get the sucker!  

    By the way DH has learned to just dig it out! And I appreciate it! Not saying dogs would know the difference, but I'm not saying they wouldn't.

    Excellent post Carla!

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think you are making a false assumption.  The fact that counter-conditioning and classical conditioning take longer does not mean that the dog spends the entire time in "imbalance".  Properly executed, the dog is not made anxious, since he is always being CC'd at the point where he is able to handle the situation.  Gradually, his opinion of what is tolerable changes for the better.  It is when people insist upon thrusting the dog into the situations that trigger a response that he has anxiety that is not being addressed.  Flooding has its downside, too.  Either way, people need to be judicious about which technique they use.  There are serious consequences to anything that is mishandled.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Here's another alternative to both the alpha roll philosophy, the flooding philosophy, and the CC philosophy. http://www.tawzerdogvideos.com/JesusRosalesRuiz-KellieSnider.htm

    Too bad it's so pricey.  Maybe in the spring....
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    But would anyone here take a brand-new rescue and pin them to show them who's boss?

     

    My answer to this question is no. I don't know if I would pin an adult dog at all, but if I did, it would have to be after I formed a bond of sorts with him or at the very least knew a lot of his history. THEN, I would decide. And if I decided to do it, I would have to set it up so that neither of us would get hurt.

    ron2
    Which brings me back to the question, why pin and roll a dog, other than physical restraint for a medical procedure?

     

    I answered this question on page 6:

    FourIsCompany
    For me, restraining a puppy in this way is simply an exercise in communication with my dog. What I'm saying is, "I am the one in this relationship who makes the rules and I expect them to be followed. I am stronger and more powerful than you are and I am your leader and mom." [...] It goes a LONG way in defining boundaries and limitations.


    ron2
    But it doesn't necessarily see the human as boss just because of holding the pin for a moment.

    How do you know that? My experience says differently. Based on my results, the dog has not only a newfound respect afterward, but feels more safe and secure (I assume) knowing that there's someone definitely in control.

    ron2
    . Unless the intent is to show the puppy that the human possesses the ability to cause pain for disobedience.

     

    There is no intent to cause pain. The intent is given above.

    ron2
    So, then, the corralative question then, is what is the necessary use of a pin and roll, outside of how momma dog uses it?

     

    There is none that I am aware of.

    • Gold Top Dog

    .:.

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    ron2
    we must be bad since we can't take in more

     

    What? What are you really saying here? I don't get it.

    ron2
    So, if we get a dog with problems, we can take the time to work them out more gently.

     

    You CAN, certainly. That's your choice. However, consider the fact that the longer time you take gently trying to move a dog past his issues, the longer time the dog spends in imbalance. If I had the opportunity to non-gently rid a dog of his issue in one fell swoop, and clear the path for a balanced future, I would do it in a heartbeat. Even if it caused the dog some pretty serious fear and discomfort in the moment.

    Which is worse? A quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress, but changes his view on the world, or months (or years) spent in fear, distress and imbalance while someone gently guides him along to eventually changing his world view?

    Who are we really considering here when we insist on taking months, even years to gently help a dog through his issues? He spends all that time in fear, imbalance, aggression, whatever, when he could have been spending it frolicking with other dogs or playing frisbee and moving around in his life without fear. Are we considering the dog? Or our own comfort level?

    I know, when I have a splinter and I ask DH to get it out, when he fiddles around being careful and "trying not to hurt me", it ends up being a lot more painful in the long run for both of us than if he had just gone in there and hurt me for a second and get the sucker!  

    By the way DH has learned to just dig it out! And I appreciate it! Not saying dogs would know the difference, but I'm not saying they wouldn't.

     

    I don't know that a dog already living in extreme fear is going to be helped via a "quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress."  In fact, I think there is a good chance that while such an action may change his view on the world, it may not be in the way you had intended.  Then, on top of the issues the dog had in the beginning, you also have to deal with the results of the attempted quick fix.  For me personally, that's a heck of a gamble to be taking, especially when I have personally never seen evidence that such a thing being successful...

    Jack and Sally are the only dogs I have had, but I have been around many horses (who I think are similar enough--both are intelligent, socially driven animals), many of whom have issues.  We have training clinics, etc at our barn.  There have been a variety of trainers that have gone through there (Natural Horsemanship and dressage) and worked with horses with a variety of different issues.  The training that I have actually seen work has been the training that takes it's time with the horse, and doesn't primarily seek quick results.  Maybe it's just a prey animal thing, but very few horses that I have been in contact with respond well to quick, forceful gestures--at least in a lasting manner. 

    We have a few rude horses there who have nasty ground manners (which is not just annoying but dangerous), and while getting after them (shaking the lead rope to get them to back off, using a stud chain, etc) in a quick, forceful way might get them off you for the time being (sometimes it's the only way to get them off you), it never seems to improve the ground manners of these individuals (and this is with it being done nearly every time the horses goes in or out). 

    What does seem to work is when that horse is actually given ground manner training sessions.  The horse might be shaped up after a session or two and need refreshing, or it may need more than that--but in that case a quick fix is just that--to make a lasting impression you need actually training.

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally
    I don't know that a dog already living in extreme fear is going to be helped via a "quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress."

     

    I don't know that it is, either. And I'm not advocating anyone doing that. My supposition is just that. A hypothetical situation.

    sillysally
    For me personally, that's a heck of a gamble to be taking, especially when I have personally never seen evidence that such a thing being successful...

     

    I have. Have you ever watched The Dog Whisperer? I have seen him being very successful with it.  

    Horses are different animals. I would not attempt to do this with a horse. For one reason, I don't know much about horses and secondly, they are a prey animal. A totally different type of animal.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The ole Alpha Roll debate.

    I've never used it. Never wanted to, never had interest to, never needed to, regardless of the dog. I've seen it used though, and I have to say I'm surprised the lady using it didn't get her face ripped off. Besides the fact that I don't wish that on anyone, I almost wish she would've been bitten for her actions. Just watching her do it would make anyone realize how totally stupid it really is.

    The "Alpha Roll", if used as its name implies, is for the sole purpose of showing who is "alpha". That's it. Please don't confuse it with handling procedures, or teaching the dog to lay on its back to have its nails clipped. It's not the same at all.

    From the day pups are born in our home, they are held on their backs, their sides, upright, etc. When they go to their new homes they are naturally conditioned to find being on their back very, very comfortable, as lots of fun things happen on your back. All of our adults have no problems rolling over for a belly rub, to get nails done, etc. Whenever our dogs have needed to go to the vet for x-rays, whether it was knees/hips/spine, most times our dogs do not need to be sedated at all, where typically they are. There was only one time a girl had to be sedated and that was because the positioning of the legs would have been uncomfortable/painful so she was put under so as not to feel pain. Other than that, our guys will lie there and let complete strangers manipulate their bodies. All of that, and never once having been alpha rolled in their lives.

    There is a difference between teaching your dog to lie on its back, or to handle minor restraint for medical procedures as an example, and forcing your dog to the ground, and holding it until it stops struggling. The ideology is different, most methods are different. Heck, even if you do pick your dog up sometimes, or lay the dog down and gently use your hands to roll over a dog, it's still not an Alpha Roll!

    Considering there is no such thing as an Alpha Roll where dogs "flip" another dog physically (not in socially-adept dogs anyhow, some social rejects might attempt it). Not in the wild, not in feral dogs, not in domestic dog. The "Alpha Roll", if it were to be described between how dogs talk to other dogs, would be one dog willingly submitting to another in a particular instance. That is an Alpha Roll. It's not meant to even HAVE physical contact. Even in dogs that sometimes stand over another dog, rarely is there any physical contact to get the dog in that position. They certainly don't do what humans are told they should do in an Alpha roll. Which is the entire problem. Once again people have taken a concept that conspecifics use, and tried (and failed miserably) to adapt it to something *humans inflict upon dogs* and then make up huge stories as to why it's a great communication to dogs, when in reality it's not how dogs would communicate at all!

    I have a "true pack". I have since I was very very small. And never, once in my life, have I witnessed a dog physically roll over another dog as a sign of dominance (the whole point of "Alpha" rolling, right?), or even to punish a dog for a misdeed. Ever. I have seen dogs "floor" other dogs with an eye or a posture, I've seen dogs roll themselves when they are growled at, I've seen other dogs walk up to another dog and submit willingly, I've even seen gentle muzzle grabs that led to a dog rolling itself, but never have I once seen a dog physically roll over another dog.

    At the same time, the roles can reverse depending on the situation. I've seen cases where one dog caused another to submit, and cases where the roles reversed entirely and the roll-ER became the roll-EE. So much for Alpha. I think the communication is a lot more complex than that, and dogs submit (by submit I mean roll onto back and expose belly) to each other for many things (clean me, groom me, I'm sorry, yes you're bigger, I'm not a threat, play with me.....the list likely is much longer than that).

    Now, the day you start being able to simply stare at your dog or give a funny face and it rolls over immediately, we'll talk about transfer of communication across species.

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    sillysally
    I don't know that a dog already living in extreme fear is going to be helped via a "quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress."

     

    I don't know that it is, either. And I'm not advocating anyone doing that. My supposition is just that. A hypothetical situation.

    sillysally
    For me personally, that's a heck of a gamble to be taking, especially when I have personally never seen evidence that such a thing being successful...

     

    I have. Have you ever watched The Dog Whisperer? I have seen him being very successful with it.  

    Horses are different animals. I would not attempt to do this with a horse. For one reason, I don't know much about horses and secondly, they are a prey animal. A totally different type of animal.

     

    Yes, I have watched the Dog Whisperer and I'm sure you realize that the viewer is hardly seeing the whole picture as far as what went into the training.  I'm sure CM himself would tell you that what he does is not a "quick fix" (if that were the case there would be no need for the owners to change their behavior, but this is something that CM insists is necessary) but an ongoing process.

    As far as horses and dogs, I really don't think they are all that different.  They have both highly social, intelligent (although horses are smarter than dogs), and have been bred to work alongside humans (sometimes in similar actives--pulling things, working stock).  Actually, my older mare lived in complete harmony with a dog for many years, the attachment was mutual, and the horse mourned the dog when she died. 

    Horses may be prey animals, but dogs are not purely predators either.  Things eat dogs, and dogs and horses both have fight or flight responses.  Just as I've seen dogs that would rather run from a threatening thing (actually, lots of dogs do this) than fight it, there are many horses that would prefer to attack the threatening thing rather than run from it (many, many horses will attack a dog that is not even threatening it, or will turn tail and go after a dog that is chasing it--we had one horse kill a puppy simply because she wandered too close to him). 

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    I have. Have you ever watched The Dog Whisperer? I have seen him being very successful with it.  

    I think you'll find a lot of disagreement with you. I've seen him scare the sh*t out of many, many dogs with it. I suppose it depends on your definition of successful though.

    I've never seen it used successfully by him. When he starts getting alpha rolls with a simple stare, then I'll say perhaps he uses it successfully. Stick out tongue

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    FourIsCompany
    I have. Have you ever watched The Dog Whisperer? I have seen him being very successful with it.  

    I think you'll find a lot of disagreement with you. I've seen him scare the sh*t out of many, many dogs with it. I suppose it depends on your definition of successful though.

    I've never seen it used successfully by him. When he starts getting alpha rolls with a simple stare, then I'll say perhaps he uses it successfully. Stick out tongue

     

    Not only do I agree with Kim here, but her previous post was excellent.  No one who acclimates a puppy to all over handling as she has described is doing an "alpha roll", and for the life of me I find it really amazing that we are still discussing an outdated, ineffective, and nasty technique that even the not-so-positive Monks of New Skete have removed from their repertoire.  

    You may not be familiar with horses, Carla, and they may not be like dogs....but they do share something with some other mammals - they learn the same way and they are too freakin' big to manhandle.  My horse, unlike his predecessors, was not such a mellow guy on the ground - until I clicker trained him to "wait".  He waits before exiting the stall (instead of scraping a human against the doorjamb), he waits at the gate to be let in or out of the paddock, and he stands nicely for the blacksmith.  Once in a while he kicks his water bucket - perhaps I should alpha roll him.  Anyone got a crane?

    • Gold Top Dog
    FourIsCompany

    I found the number one point of your next post to be somewhat confusing. I believe you're saying you used a "puppy pin" and so did your mother and the dog grew up adoring you both, but wasn't safe around anyone else unless they convinced him on their own that they were okay. Yet you say he never challenged anyone in the family once he was out of puppyhood. Do you mean he wasn't safe around strangers? Just a little confusing, but I think I get your point. Would you say that the fact that you and your mother both pinned this aggressive puppy set up part of the foundation of your later relationship with him?

    Sorry, it's confusing because I'm a little confused about it. I don't think the pin necessarily did anything. There were other people in the family that never pinned him as far as I know and he never challenged them, either. He was very aggressive towards strangers and other dogs. It's hard to say whether pinning him made any lasting impression on him. He may well have adored my mother and never challenged her because she doled out the food and paid him lots of loving attention, but maybe he didn't because he had at 12 weeks and lost. Who can say? I wasn't living at home at the time, so I don't really know. I wanted to make the point that we both found ourselves in aggressive situations with this puppy at a young age, and even though we dealt with it as best we could in the heat of the moment, he still grew up with very high levels of aggression. He would bite strangers if he got the chance. This was really unheard of in any dog my mother has ever raised. Her dogs have always been wonderful. So I wonder if pinning a puppy in the situations where I would do it is particularly useful. I still think I would do it again if faced with a pup that wants to hurt me, but I do wonder if a puppy like that would grow up aggressive no matter what. It seems that way to me.

    I consider the puppy pin a violent reaction because it was forceful and confrontational and he didn't like it. I would be happier walking away, but every now and then I think you can't just walk away or you'll have more confrontations. Better to put a stop to it right away. I reacted calmly, but my heart was pounding, thinking what on earth was going to happen with this little mite that actually wanted to hurt me.

    • Gold Top Dog
    spiritdogs

    I think you are making a false assumption.  The fact that counter-conditioning and classical conditioning take longer does not mean that the dog spends the entire time in "imbalance".  Properly executed, the dog is not made anxious, since he is always being CC'd at the point where he is able to handle the situation.  Gradually, his opinion of what is tolerable changes for the better.  It is when people insist upon thrusting the dog into the situations that trigger a response that he has anxiety that is not being addressed.  Flooding has its downside, too.  Either way, people need to be judicious about which technique they use.  There are serious consequences to anything that is mishandled.

    Great post! That's what it comes down to for me. Dogs are easy to read. I don't think there's much of an excuse for pushing them so far they snap. My hare is a deal harder and sometimes I accidentally push him too far because I'm not paying attention. If I'm paying attention, though, there's no reason why the flight or fight response should be triggered. If I can manage that with a wild hare, anyone who works with aggressive dogs should be able to handle it fine. It's better, I think, to make them forget that's how they used to behave by not pushing them so much that they keep seeing a need to do it.

    Sally, I think that's what I was sort of getting at with my tails of puppy pinning an aggressive puppy. It didn't make much difference to his temperament or the way he behaved in the end. I'm just not sure what else you do with a puppy snarling viciously and trying to bite you. Any ideas anyone?

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    For me, restraining a puppy in this way is simply an exercise in communication with my dog. What I'm saying is, "I am the one in this relationship who makes the rules and I expect them to be followed. I am stronger and more powerful than you are and I am your leader and mom."

     

    Hmm, that sounds to me a lot like what mudpuppy was trying to say... that it is, basically, an act of ritualistic violence/aggression. You (general) can say it or do it in the nicest way you can think of, but it doesn't change the bottom line.  I think that I agree with mudpuppy on  a lot of points here.  I do get the impression that people are being rather squeamish about this subject.  That speaks volumes about the technique to me.  Its very controversy is an indicator that this is not all positive rainbows and kittens etc.

     

    Still "general" you... 

    I am getting the feel that this is PROBABLY not something that would be attempted with an adult.  Why is that?  Why is it OK for pups but not for adults?  If its because its risky, then doesn't it follow that its risky because its not very, er, dog friendly?  To me, "puppy pinning" is like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.  Its like sticking a prong on a puppy.  A young, impressionable puppy doesn't NEED you to show him anything or prove anything in quite such strong terms and if he does, then take a look at WHY and see if you are doing anything wrong.  Why is your relationship so deficient that you feel the need to use this manouvure?

    I don't see exactly how this method could be effectively applied in a puppy.  If a puppy appears to be particularly disobedient, I will take a step back and ask, "what's going on here?  Is he confused? under trained? under motivated?" By this time, the moment to apply any kind of aversive or send any kind of message to the dog has passed.  And then I set both of us up for future success.  If I do it right then a repeat performance won't happen, hence no need for the roll/pin/downing/whatever.  Honestly, I see this as a fair way of dealing with a puppy in nearly all cases.  I think to punish the pup by any means without first taking stock is rather unfair, and I make no apologies for that. 

    I know this won't sit well with a lot of people but I say it anyway because I think this very effectively answers the OP's question: "Why the hot debate?"  There you have it: I've basically said that the technique is at best an unfair one in most cases, and also overkill in most cases.  Telling someone, WRT to raising their kid or training their dog: "You are doing it wrong" is ALWAYS going to go down like a lead balloon!  Unfortunately, I feel its impossible to participate in a thread like this without upsetting SOMEONE and quite probably a lot of people.  But I am genuinely enjoying this thread so I have had my best stab at being as least offensive as possible and I'm just going to take the hit.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy
    To me, "puppy pinning" is like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

    Reminds me of a Stanley Coren quote I love:

    "Forcing the dog onto its back is the equivalent of an
    abusive parent beating a child to force it to say, 'I love you.'
    Although he or she may have forced the words out of the child's mouth,
    they cannot force the statement to be true....
    Forcing a dog into a submissive position is the Doggish equivalent of this scenario.

    Even worse, this technique may actually anger the dog enough to provoke it to attack.
    Forcing a dog into an alpha roll, or shaking the dog, both constitute physical aggression.
    Physical aggression is not communication. If there is good communication,
    then such confrontations need not occur." - Stanley Coren, "How to Speak Dog"