The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Great posts, as usual, corvus.

corvus

If someone wants it more, they get it. [...] It's the same thing, but a different perspective.

I agree. It's pretty much the same thing I'm talking about, but using different words to describe it. The difference (to me) is that I would not use physical force in my equal relationships with other adult humans. Because they are completely autonomous. I wouldn't impose my will on them. I would let them know my opinion, but wouldn't push past letting them know.

In a partnership with a child or dog, I would use physical force (hold their hand, insist they wear a collar and leash, don't leave the yard, etc) because the world is a dangerous place and it's my responsibility to keep them safe and to keep other people safe and from being bothered by them. You may see that as me wanting their safety more than they want their freedom. That's valid. But if my husband decided to leave, I would not put a collar on him and keep him here, no matter how much I wanted him to stay.

I found the number one point of your next post to be somewhat confusing. I believe you're saying you used a "puppy pin" and so did your mother and the dog grew up adoring you both, but wasn't safe around anyone else unless they convinced him on their own that they were okay. Yet you say he never challenged anyone in the family once he was out of puppyhood. Do you mean he wasn't safe around strangers? Just a little confusing, but I think I get your point. 

corvus

Yes, it was violent, even though I didn't hurt him.

I have never considered what I did as violent at all, as there was no intent to harm or injure by either party. And it was really very calm and without much resistance at all (except for B'asia - she resisted for a while - she was older than the others). If you mean it was forceful or intense, I can understand that. But if he intended to harm you and you stopped it, I don't consider that violence (on your part) but self preservation. And I would consider it aggression on his, not violence. I don't think a dog has the capacity for violence, which usually comes out of hatred. Only aggression, which usually comes out of fear.  

Would you say that the fact that you and your mother both pinned this aggressive puppy set up part of the foundation of your later relationship with him?

corvus

2. Are we really talking about dogs rescued from death row, here? I have my own controversial ideas about the costs of rehabbing aggressive dogs, but each to their own and that's a discussion best left off this thread. I thought this thread was about using alpha rolls on everyday kind of dogs with no serious emotional issues and no history of aggression towards humans. To me, that's a whole different ball game and a whole different discussion.

OP's thread is "The Alpha Roll- Purpose and Effectiveness"...that applies exactly to what I wrote....not just everyday kind of dogs. 

snownose

think about the person who rescues on a regular basis...how many folks do that?

Not a lot. Most of us, who don't actually get to rescue because we don't have the money or space or just as bad, the limited heart (we must be bad since we can't take in more). So, if we get a dog with problems, we can take the time to work them out more gently. It would seem that one of the main points of this endless thread is that pinning might work best on a puppy. Well, I think momma bumps and pins her dogs to some degree but it also does end at a certain point. If we use that logic, then alpha rolling a dog past a certain age is fairly useless except for, of course a medical procedure.

Others are getting accused of debating in extremes. But don't we all and some words just have meaning and nothing can be done stop that. I know you bang pots. Yes, that's a punishment, so is witholding a treat. You're not the only one to use punishment. Have you ever taken a fresh rescue and alpha rolled them to show them they're in your house? I could do it if I wanted to, I am 6' 6", 253 lbs, and I have quick reflexes. I wonder, if rescue is such special work (and I think it is) how much of that special situation relates to others? Or do some of us have limited relation to rescue? My dog surely would have been PTS if surrendered to the shelter. They have a euth schedule, so such things are on my mind because those are the facts of life in this county. Over 1 year old with just about no training and used to playing hard and wrestling with humans, how do you physically correct a dog like that? I tried.

In reference to your statement on how Shadow plays hard and was used to wrestling with humans.......any of the dogs that have been in my care, that includes my own, know when the fun is over, and when I mean business.....simple, one doesn't need to be 6'6" and weighing over 200 lbs to control a dog.....

corvus

I have my own controversial ideas about the costs of rehabbing aggressive dogs, but each to their own and that's a discussion best left off this thread. I thought this thread was about using alpha rolls on everyday kind of dogs with no serious emotional issues and no history of aggression towards humans. To me, that's a whole different ball game and a whole different discussion.

Costs of rehabbing aggressive dogs?  The costs is inversive to how much you know about dog behavior or how much your advisor knows and understands.  I hope I used the word inversive right because what I mean is the less you know the more it costs to rehab a dog.

When Paganini was booted out of two foster homes and the vet kennel could not longer keep her, I took her in and I intended to isolate her because she was dog aggressive.  I picked her up at the vet clinic and I had Marvin and Molson along with me for a vet check.  Paganini's reaction to those two dogs was severe.  I isolated her in the car and all she did was bark, growl and snap all the way home.  Thats how she got her name.  The handler that turned Paganini over to me said two things that stuck in my mind.  This dogs mission in life is to attack and kill other dogs.  And, if this dog smells another dog on a bed, she tear that bed to shreds.  My, what did I get myself into?  Getting home, I did my standard protocal for introducing a new dog to my pack.  Withing 15 minutes Paganini started to become part of the pack and her aggressive behavior subsided.  I have had her 4 weeks now and she is the clown of the pack, always playing, alway cuddling with the other dogs.  Her next step is to meet new dogs in the real world.  I don't expect her reaction to be like the first time we met.

The costs of rehabbing an aggressive dog?  Can turn out to be no dollars but time.  15 minutes of my time gave this dog a whole new life to look forward to. 

ron2

we must be bad since we can't take in more

What? What are you really saying here? I don't get it.

ron2

So, if we get a dog with problems, we can take the time to work them out more gently.

You CAN, certainly. That's your choice. However, consider the fact that the longer time you take gently trying to move a dog past his issues, the longer time the dog spends in imbalance. If I had the opportunity to non-gently rid a dog of his issue in one fell swoop, and clear the path for a balanced future, I would do it in a heartbeat. Even if it caused the dog some pretty serious fear and discomfort in the moment.

Which is worse? A quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress, but changes his view on the world, or months (or years) spent in fear, distress and imbalance while someone gently guides him along to eventually changing his world view?

Who are we really considering here when we insist on taking months, even years to gently help a dog through his issues? He spends all that time in fear, imbalance, aggression, whatever, when he could have been spending it frolicking with other dogs or playing frisbee and moving around in his life without fear. Are we considering the dog? Or our own comfort level?

I know, when I have a splinter and I ask DH to get it out, when he fiddles around being careful and "trying not to hurt me", it ends up being a lot more painful in the long run for both of us than if he had just gone in there and hurt me for a second and get the sucker!  

By the way DH has learned to just dig it out! And I appreciate it! Not saying dogs would know the difference, but I'm not saying they wouldn't.

Ron, I would not attempt to alpha roll a foster of any age or size.  And you know MY size.  But you also know my philosophies.

I can correct and redirect, I can set very firm guidelines for a dog who has never lived in a house and I can (somehow) teach these dogs enough manners and obedience to be adopted.

I started working with a very messed up 8 month old boxer a day after his owner brought him home from a rescue. The dog was completely out of control. No respect for humans. Humans were nothing but chew toys or wallpaper, other dogs were playthings or targets. The owner had scratches on her face from this dog when I  arrived. Although I don't use restraining a dog on the ground very often, this dog was all over you with his mouth the minute you touched him. So, after taking hold of his collar, his protest began. I simply held his collar in such a way so that he could not bite me and refused to let go. He ended up on his side, on the ground, through his own extinction burst. I know there are folks who simply can't wrap their mind around something like this without equating it with anger and/or violence due to either how their brains process information, their own treatment as children, or whatever...and there is nothing I can do about the emotional spin someone chooses to conjure up either, but I am comfortable doing this to help a messed up dog.

This was a tricky case because this dog had previously been attacked by humans when he had messed in the house or when the humans had lost their tempers with him. I know this because the dog "told me" these things as I was working with him. Unfair discipline done in anger or frustration is viewed by the dog as an attack by an unstable human. This can cause a dog to also bite in fear or self defense in addition to bratty protest and/or disciplinary biting.

There is quite a story to tell about this dog and he's doing great now.

Disclaimer? Yes, I don't recommend anyone using this manuver unless you read and speak dog very well and know what you are doing. There is a lot going on and the situation can change quickly. I've written about this quite extensively on this board in the past...there might be something left in the archives.

ron2

Yes, that's a punishment, so is witholding a treat. You're not the only one to use punishment.

Now this statement is a revelation.  2 months short of a year of me bringinng this up...FINALLY!   It is well worth it even if I have to endure members telling me I am rude, I don't know what I am talking about, or I am just baiting. 

Well, please believe that I am not saying how one should handle rescues and rehabs. There are people here who do that, with a variety of methods. Also, it might just be fruitless to debate on which method is the quickest or the most humane. We will all have our different ideas on that, as has already been shown.

As Snownose wisely pointed out, you don't have to be my size or roll the dog to effect a change, even with a well-timed and effective correction, such as noise aversion, consistency of rules, etc. But would anyone here take a brand-new rescue and pin them to show them who's boss?

Which brings me back to the question, why pin and roll a dog, other than physical restraint for a medical procedure? If one does it to a puppy in a non-painful way a number of times, the dog becomes conditioned to allowing the human to do it, but there's no threat of violence or physical punishment, then the dog aquiesces for the time being. But it doesn't necessarily see the human as boss just because of holding the pin for a moment. Unless the intent is to show the puppy that the human possesses the ability to cause pain for disobedience. And the move will only be punishing, regardless of pain or lack thereof, if the dog understands it as a punishment.

So, then, the corralative question then, is what is the necessary use of a pin and roll, outside of how momma dog uses it? The Border Collies caddy-corner to us are momma and daughter. Daughter is full grown. And until they got the third dog, a healer mix, momma dog would pin and cause pain to daughter. It didn't always involve a roll, but she would overpower and bite daughter enough to cause a yelp. I think that's mostly because momma dog has to herd everything. The Healer mix made momma back off because he won't put up with her stuff. The daughter is already "submissive" in that she doesn't try to take over. And yes, the owners have not bothered to train.

Angelique, my first blush in reading your post is that you gave the boxer a well needed hug.

Angelique

I simply held his collar in such a way so that he could not bite me and refused to let go. He ended up on his side, on the ground, through his own extinction burst

I'm glad you mentioned that because I have sometimes been confused over what, in discussion, is a difference between operant conditioning, which is normally associated with active learning on the part of the subject, and classical conditioning. The dog was a victim of classical conditioning and you were counteracting that with classical conditioning, i.e., holding the dog and hopefully allowing him to change his perception of human touch or even holding the collar. Eventually, as you described, the dog lowered and rolled himself, either as a relaxation, or as an appeasement to you. I don't think you intended to roll the dog. He did it as an appeasement signal to you to end the contest. And maybe there was a mix of classical reconditioning and OC. The dog associates a new meaning with human touch and is eventually rewarded by closer interaction with humans, a reward. But I'm not going to debate, again, which is the most humane, or effective, method. Just that I think I might understand what you were doing or driving at.

Ron, I have to say when bringing home some bad rescues, one has to be the most loving one can be, but, to get rid of bad behaviors that are dangerous to dogs or humans, one has to be tough......it isn't always easy.....I certainly appreciate your effort in giving Shadow a good home, but it's different when there are other dogs involved and one doesn't keep the rescue, and a home needs to be found.....we don't have years to pave a path for a good outcome.....

Which brings me back to the question, why pin and roll a dog, other than physical restraint for a medical procedure? If one does it to a puppy in a non-painful way a number of times, the dog becomes conditioned to allowing the human to do it, but there's no threat of violence or physical punishment, then the dog aquiesces for the time being. But it doesn't necessarily see the human as boss just because of holding the pin for a moment.

exactly. The entire idea of the alpha roll came about because people used to think DOGS showed other dogs "who was boss" by pinning the dog. That idea has been resoundingly discredited as being based on some highly flawed studies of wolf behavior. So if you pin a dog, it is highly unlikely the dog will interpret the gesture in the way you want the dog to interpret it. Your puppy may learn to lie quietly when held down, that's about it.

Oh, I have some experience with my SO, who alpha-rolled a 120 pound aggressive rescue- he successfully pinned the dog, then he had to go get stitched up at the ER, and the dog was even more aggressive and out of control after the incident.

 I just wanted to say that this has been a good thread for me - it has me thinking about a lot of ideas and chewing things over in my mind. Thank you all.