The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

 To touch on the point of the puppy pin or alpha roll meaning "I am stronger and more powerful than you, I am in charge" (paraphrasing, Carla was that you who said that?)...anyway, to address that..

That's true for a puppy, in the physical sense.  The majority of adults are going to be physically stronger than the average puppy.  Heck, the majority of kids are.  If we use the example of a large breed or mix, though, at some point that balance shifts, and the dog becomes stronger, hence why you see adults being yanked down the street by their dogs.  So, if this is the meaning of the puppy pin or the alpha roll and one wants to have an honest relationship with their dog, it is something that can ONLY be done to a puppy or a small breed dog, and is being done before there is any need of it, if there is any.  I accept the "do anything possible" mentality with aggressive adult rescues, but we're talking about puppies here...blank slates....animals who are only likely to become aggressive through treatment or medical issue.  I'm reminded of being a kid and being afraid of something scary but innocuous, like a spider, and my parents telling me that it was more scared of me than I was of it.  A puppy doesn't need to be put on it's back by a human to be told "I am stronger than you are"...it knows that by instinct, because any animal with a brain capacity that lends itself to being trained is going to know that if it comes up to the shins of another creature, it's a pretty good bet that that creature can physically control you.

So, then, we get to the second part of the meaning (and Carla, I'm not picking you apart, I am using your definition for the purposes of intellectual argument) that the human is more powerful.  Mentally, that's true - in a dog-human relationship, the one who has all the resources has the power.  That's true for human relationships too, actually, but I digress.  If we accept that the human is more powerful in the mental sense, then the dog has to learn to be subordinate in the mental sense..... why use such a physical act to direct mental interaction?  Can't the same effect be achieved by less physical methods?

Benedict

Can't the same effect be achieved by less physical methods?

That would be my thinking, as well.

Benedict

 A puppy doesn't need to be put on it's back by a human to be told "I am stronger than you are"...it knows that by instinct, because any animal with a brain capacity that lends itself to being trained is going to know that if it comes up to the shins of another creature, it's a pretty good bet that that creature can physically control you.

I introduce you to an African Grey Parrot named Echo. Trainable, yes.  Cuddley, yes.  Moody, YES.  I was taught two things.  Never have the bird perched higher than you because the bird will behave dominant.  And, while the bird is biting your finger, that is your finger is wedged in the beak, you need to push in instead pulling your finger away.   In all the years I was never able to push in because it hurt so much that my instinctual reaction was always to pull away. 

Benedict

Can't the same effect be achieved by less physical methods?

I'm pretty sure it can. I don't have any negative judgments, though, about physical methods. In fact, many times I prefer them. I understand how people who don't like physical methods of communication would not prefer to make this communication in a physical way, and I have no problem with that. But I prefer to be physical with my dog a lot. We have very physical relationships.

I don't have any problem with people using NILIF, for example to communicate to their dogs, "I hold all the resources. Everything you need in life you will have to get from me. I make the rules here and want them to be followed. You will work for your room and board and follow the rules or else you will not have access to the resources."

I prefer my way, but I'm not going to accuse NILIF users of abuse, cruelty, violence and aggression or clicker-trainers of starving their dogs, or bribing them or whatever nasty thing I can find to say about them.   It's just a difference of opinion and style. There's nothing inherently wrong with being physical with a dog. As long as you're not hurting it. Whether it's to communicate "I love you", "Settle down", "It's time for your medicine" or whatever. It's all communication. Sometimes I wonder what people have against physical communication...

Benedict

A puppy doesn't need to be put on it's back by a human to be told "I am stronger than you are"...

How do you know that?

Any time I ask that question, it gets completely ignored. People seem to think they know exactly what a dog knows and how he thinks and I just wonder how you know. Secondly, dogs are not children. They don't grow up and move out on their own. And they're not horses. All these comparisons to when we were children and other species are really irrelevant.

Check out my dogs. Are they damaged? Do they feel abused? Are they the least bit afraid of me? Then what's the problem?  

.:.

lostcoyote

has anyone ever taken notice that dogs ARE physical? why not teach dogs to be less physical with each other begs to be answered if you wish to impose upon others that they must be less physical with their own dogs.

FourIsCompany

Benedict

A puppy doesn't need to be put on it's back by a human to be told "I am stronger than you are"...

How do you know that?

Any time I ask that question, it gets completely ignored. People seem to think they know exactly what a dog knows and how he thinks and I just wonder how you know. Secondly, dogs are not children. They don't grow up and move out on their own. And they're not horses. All these comparisons to when we were children and other species are really irrelevant.

Check out my dogs. Are they damaged? Do they feel abused? Are they the least bit afraid of me? Then what's the problem?  

I have seen numerous examples of dogs that I know were not pinned as young puppies who have all turned out to be respectable members of the canine community.  Wouldn't that suggest that a puppy pin might not be necessary for the proper raising of good puppies?

In addition, I really wonder how you can discount the comparison to another species as "irrelevant" if you know nothing about said species.  As you asked in your own post--How do you know?
 

FourIsCompany

sillysally

I'm sure CM himself would tell you that what he does is not a "quick fix"

 

Who said anything about a "quick fix"? Not me. I said I had seen him be successful with what some call an alpha roll. That's all.   

I believe you stated in your post " A quick forceful gesture that causes immediate distress, but changes his view on the world."  This statement clearly suggests a single physical maneuver intended on getting results on-the-spot, especially when you follow said statement with "or months (or years) spent in fear, distress and imbalance while someone gently guides him along to eventually changing his world view?"

 It's getting hot in here, people. Can we maybe cool off a little and try not to split ourselves up into teams for some kind of verbal brawl?

I am feeling somewhat confused about my brush with puppy pinning. Our pup wasn't rolled on his back, but pinned behind the neck or shoulders until he stopped snarling and trying to bite. What is one to do when they have a 12 week old puppy aggressively attacking them? He was raised the same way as any other puppy in our household and he's the only one that acted that way. We met his mother, and she was lovely. I kind of thought of it like when little kids are throwing a tantrum and trying to kick or hit you, and you put your hand on their forehead at arms length so they can rage all they like but not hurt you. Do people have another idea for how to handle this kind of behaviour, because I've got nothing. I feel like one of the most dangerous things you can teach an animal is that aggression gets it what it wants. So what do you do when a puppy aggresses at you in an attempt to get what he wants? You have to protect yourself, but you don't want to hurt the little guy, but nor can you afford to let him get an outcome anything like what he set out to achieve. How do you get yourself out of that situation without resorting to force? When he did it to me, I was trying to get him out from behind a couch where power cords were. I tried coaxing and tempting, but he wasn't interested, so I went to grab him, never thinking for a moment he'd turn on me when he was still just a baby. So what do I do now that I've misjudged the situation and have a crazy puppy snarling and delivering hard, painful bites all over any part of me he can reach? I've got to do something fast to save my fingers and tell him snarling and biting isn't on, but I can't back off because that's what he's trying to make me do. Were it an older dog, I wouldn't have got myself into this situation, but this is a wee little puppy and this attack has come out of the blue. The pup has been to puppy pre-school, is expected to sit for his meals, has been socialised, lives with another, sensible dog, and is in the middle of being trained basic commands. He knows how hard he needs to bite to hurt, and that's what he's doing.

Sure, this I think doesn't happen often, but there are exceptions and apparently we're talking about extreme cases. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts, although I don't know much about the home situation because I wasn't living there at the time. I do know he was treated no differently than any other dog my mother had raised, though, and she has a history of raising pretty balanced, happy dogs. 

Check out my dogs. Are they damaged? Do they feel abused? Are they the least bit afraid of me? Then what's the problem? 

Well, for one thing, your dogs may be fine, but that could be largely a result of their own stable temperament.  Some people seem to function in pretty normal fashion, despite horrific abuse.  But, the memory of that, and even some of the effects of that. might be invisible to the world, but they linger in the mind of the victim.  Others, who perhaps were not blessed with the same constitution, suffer abuse and end up in psychiatric hospitals, or suffer from addictions, or perpetrate the same violence on their own children. 

Secondly, while you may read your dogs well, there are others who don't - they wouldn't recognize the "damage" unless the dog came up and bit them.  So, I find that argument to be less than helpful when it comes to dogs in general.

The comparison to other species is not completely valid, but on the points of how mammals learn, and the fact that you cannot physically manipulate whales, I'm willing to concede the similarities. 

spiritdogs

Some people seem to function in pretty normal fashion, despite horrific abuse.  But, the memory of that, and even some of the effects of that. might be invisible to the world, but they linger in the mind of the victim.  Others, who perhaps were not blessed with the same constitution, suffer abuse and end up in psychiatric hospitals, or suffer from addictions, or perpetrate the same violence on their own children. 

Excellent point. I've mentioned more than once the corporal punishment of my upbringing and, fwiw, I'm not totally against punishment. But for the longest time, my first reaction to any confrontation is to prefer a face to face confrontation. Is that just me or is it a side-effect of punishment, or is it upbring, as my mother, who did most of our raising, was equally bold and forthright? Quite possibly the latter. Someone else with the same upbringing could have had issues that landed them in a hospital.

But I find Mudpuppy's view to be a concise one. It's not that any kind of punishment has never been used. It's important that the punishment be the right one and be effective. The environment is punishing. A little puppy bumping into table legs and sliding glass doors is getting +P from the environment. And all the while, the puppy is seeking a reward, a reward that is stronger than the knocks and pings of the environment. The reward, whatever it is he is sniffing, has to be more powerful than the punishments for the puppy to not stop at the first bump. Therefore a natural world for the dog has rewards that make it worth undergoing the punishments. And often, that reward is stronger than the punishments, it has to be for the dog to overcome obstacles. Which, imo, places a limit on the value or usefullness of punishments, even when the dog understands it as a punishment, which is not to say that a punishment won't be effective.

Another thought I had is that pinning a pup may not hurt the puppy and it may not see you as the big, powerful human. But the act may condition the puppy to accept such physical holds and control from the human if nothing else bad happened, it would get associated with a good thing. Which is then, not a punishment but a cue. If the human holds me, and I be calm, other good things happen.

So, done early enough, it cold be similar to momma dog, a -R hold, or with a human, a classically conditioned training cue. Most say they will not do it to an adult dog, and one or two would do it to change a dog's behavior, if it changed the behavior enough for the dog to avoid the final needle. Or, at least, that's what I'm seeing, so far.

.:.

.:.

Clearly this is a topic on which we will never agree.

I've raised dogs for many years and I've never found a need to use an alpha roll.  And yes, I have had a few agressive pups. 

I think more than anything, it comes down to who we are as people and what we are comfortable with.  My dogs are very well trained and well behaved animals.  Five had earned their CGC.  All will lay on their side or their backs on request, submit to medical procedures, nail cutting, grooming, whatever is required.  I, as a person, am not comfortable with using force, so I don't use it.  Some folks are, so they will.  I don't  believe there is any clear answer to this, or to whether or not dogs are damaged by it.  At least not early on.

 Carla, I don't think you are a violent or aggressive person.  Some acts come across as violent (or suggestive of violence) no matter HOW you explain how calm and loving you were at the time.  You said yourself that part of the message being conveyed here is: "I am stronger than you".  It does come down to a physical contest.  I am also not against physical touch to communicate, but a physical contest?  That sits wrongly with me.  I appreciate how corvus did it and I could imagine myself doing something similar.  It would not be behaviour modification or relationship building - purely as a way to protect myself and/or others in that moment, to prevent the dog from biting - and it would not be a routine thing... only with very special, isolated cases and probably only with puppies.  I don't believe I could do it safely with an adult. 

I am specualting, but I think your dogs would be just fine if you had omitted the pin in their young lives, because your relationship is so good with them in other ways.  Unfortunately neither of us can KNOW on that score

Now here is another thought.  Supposing you are correct.  Supposing your relationship with them IS based, in part, on this technique when they were puppies.  That they respect you and obey you and love you, in part because they believe you are bigger and stronger than they are.  WHAT IF they tested that?  What if they discovered that was no longer the case?  Might the pecking order not be up for review?  Or, to put it another way, might this technique potentially cause more problems later down the line should a dog discover he's actually stronger than you are (and thus removing that vital brick in the foundation of your relationship?)

Here's another thought.  Supposing you are correct and your relationship with your dogs is so good because you have this vital brick in place - that they were convinced as puppies that you were bigger and stronger than they were and you have not had to repeat the procedure with them as adults because they still believe it to be the case.  You've basically tricked them into believing that you are bigger and stronger than them and always will be.  And I know you have said you want to be honest with your dogs and you never "trick" them.  Doe sthis not count as a "trick"? 

FourIsCompany

Check out my dogs. Are they damaged? Do they feel abused? Are they the least bit afraid of me? Then what's the problem?

Your dogs seem totally fine to me.  But then, on the surface, as far as we can tell such things over the internet, you seem fine too and you have suffered tremendously.  How your dogs are now - or how YOU are now - is no clue to us of what lies in your pasts.  I could scream in William's face tomorrow and call him horrible names.  He won't understand them.  He might be scared, but he will forget it because I am a very good mother in other ways.  He will probably grow up totally undamaged and be a lovely person, emotionally stable and well adjusted.  Does that mean its OK to do that?  I know its not a great comparison, because I don't think you CAN scream in a loving way, but I hope you can appreciate what I am trying to get across.  As I have said before, a hundred times over.... Just because you can does not mean you should.