Things you can Teach with the "KM" philosophy

I have to be honest....there is just way too much food dispensing going on IMO,.......overkill.....

no no, during an actual clicker training session you can't dispense too much food. A clicker session should last only a couple of minutes per behavior, and you want the dog to be earning at least ten treats per thirty seconds- if he's not getting that many, you need to make it easier for him. Note this has nothing to do with "real life"- once the dog grasps the behavior, you stop using the clicker and you start rapidly reducing the number of rewards. The clicker and heavy treating are only for the initial learning phase.

Example: I want to teach my dog to not-chase the cat, which I will do by teaching the dog that seeing a moving cat is his cue for turning his head away from the cat and then sitting. My friend parades a leashed cat past an open doorway some distance, but in sight of, the dog. My dog is an experienced clicker-dog, so he starts throwing behaviors at me. Every time he glances at the cat going by and then glances away I click and treat. Once he's earned twenty treats rapidly, we quit. Repeat session a couple of times until it's clear he's grasped the idea that "see cat move= turn head= good stuff". Then you ask for the sit. Repeat multiple times, and then hesitate before asking for the sit, and see if he offers it. Now you've got a complex behavior chain: "see cat move= turn head= sit= good stuff". At this point you could abandon the clicker and start to reward intermittently. Now you "proof":  you can start moving the cat closer and closer, and perhaps moving the cat faster, and try it in different locations. Every time you increase the difficulty you go back to heavy reward schedule until the dog "gets it".

The difficulty people get into with using +R to STOP behaviors is you can't wait until the dog does the bad behavior- you have to prevent the dog from doing it. Otherwise you get complex behavior chains: see cat/ chase cat/ mom calls me/ I get good stuff. Or see child/ jump on child/ sit/ mom gives me good stuff.

I think it was real nice of Kim to share her videos... content deleted

DPU

Dog_ma

As for the other dogs, social animals learn very well through observation and modeling. The "extra" dogs are performing in the hopes of getting a treat, and they are able to see one dog being reinforced.  As long as each dog gets time being reinforced, watching others learn can be a great way to reinforce a behavior.  

Charactize it or justify it any way you want, the bottom line is the "extra" dog is disappointed.  So simple to teach a dog its name and give the dog its own identity.

I think we fundamentally disagree on the nature of dogs. I don't think a dog is crushed by not always getting what it wants, AND I think a dog's life can be made richer by the excitement of trying to get what it wants.  The hunt. Some hunting is mental.

Once again, no either or. We don't use the clicker much, because I'm not good with it, but Sasha *loves* the mental hunt involved in learning new behaviors for (yes!) food rewards. It isn't sadistic of me - I am giving her a job, a way to feel involved in her food acquisition. As far as identity, it isn't something I give her.  She has one, and I respect it. I treat her like the sentient being she is. Her happiness is important to me. Her opinions are important to me. And it is her opinion that food-based trick training is da bomb.

Dog_ma

Snownose, in the early days of training a behavior, treats are given each time.  Once a behavior is learned, treats should (ideally) be given intermittently.  If Kim is sharing her early training videos, then consistent treats are totally appropriate. 

Exactly. My dogs have known how to sit on command forever, it was the first thing I started teaching them when they were 9 weeks old. I require sits for all sorts of reasons now, dozens of times a day, and they NEVER get a treat for sitting. It's a long term established behavior so no reinforcement required. When I first started teaching sit, they got rewarded every single time for sitting in front of me, facing me in the usual toe to toe scenario, and then the reinforcement level was reduced or I required several behaviors to get a single treat, (sit, down, stand, for example). But then I needed to generalize that sit command so that they'd sit in the car, or with me in a chair or on the floor, or to sit next to me in heel position, or with my back turned. Each time I made "sit" different and more difficult we went back to a high reinforcement rate, but then dropped off again once they got it.

But even if sit was absolutely perfect under all circumstances around the house, add a few distractions, like on a walk or in a class, and suddenly sit is new again because the criteria had changed. So the reward level gets bumped up again, as long as necessary, and then dropped off again. In agility class I'd even go back to using a lure from time to time, something I had faded within the first few training sessions as a young puppy. But off leash on a grassy field with a bunch of other interesting dogs around and all that fun equipment was much more challenging - it was NEW.

Old and easy behaviors = little or no reinforcement beyond simple praise, if that. New and difficult behaviors always start with tons of reinforcement, especially if you're shaping a behavior. You move to a random reinforcement schedule as early as possible, just as you would fade a lure.

mudpuppy

you want the dog to be earning at least ten treats per thirty seconds

That would be a treat every 3 seconds, which does not allow time for anything else, at the moment the dog is chewing the treat is already time for the next one, and since you said "at least" then even more treats means less time for anything else but eating

mudpuppy

Every time he glances at the cat going by and then glances away I click and treat.

I think teaching that on a hunting dog will nurture the hunting behavior "locate the cat and i will give you a reward" very dangerous for the cat, the dog might think that hunting down the cat will give him a better and bigger reward since only looking at the cat earned him a treat

espencer

That would be a treat every 3 seconds, which does not allow time for anything else, at the moment the dog is chewing the treat is already time for the next one, and since you said "at least" then even more treats means less time for anything else but eating

Great observation.......so, basically the dog would be eating it's meal while working for the human......interesting....

I can't speak to what Kim uses, but when I use training treats they are smaller than my pinkie fingernail.  And chewing isn't something my dogs at least feel is required for anything smaller than a fly.

Moderators note:  please keep in mind the following statement from the OP before you throw any further snide comments:

As a note: The reliability of the behaviours are only as good as I have expected them to be, and to the degree to which we have worked on them. Most of these videos are teaching journals, therefore they are not all the finished products of behaviours.

Kim_MacMillan

As a note: The reliability of the behaviours are only as good as I have expected them to be, and to the degree to which we have worked on them. Most of these videos are teaching journals, therefore they are not all the finished products of behaviours.

I believe I have asked you legitimate questions and have made comments to enhance your "finished products of behaviors".  So please, let us know if your wish is only to have compliments. 

glenmar

I can't speak to what Kim uses, but when I use training treats they are smaller than my pinkie fingernail.  And chewing isn't something my dogs at least feel is required for anything smaller than a fly.

Even if you give them a grain of cooked rice, 3 seconds is nothing, even less with shaping exercises where there is not a specific behavior you want the dog to demonstrate and you need to let your dog to "explore" what to do next, in Kim's video she gives treats in an average time of 8 seconds between each other 

Click:

1.-handing the treat=1 second passed

2.-Dog swallowing the tiny treat = 2 seconds passed (if we consider the dog didnt even chew it once)

3.-Dog lowering the head to continue with the shaping exercise= 3 seconds passed = time for the next treat = no time to offer any subsequent behavior

I think between 8 to 10 seconds is more realistic 

DPU

Kim_MacMillan

As a note: The reliability of the behaviours are only as good as I have expected them to be, and to the degree to which we have worked on them. Most of these videos are teaching journals, therefore they are not all the finished products of behaviours.

I believe I have asked you legitimate questions and have made comments to enhance your "finished products of behaviors".  So please, let us know if your wish is only to have compliments. 

 

I believe you have demonstrated a lack of understanding regarding the technique, and made numerous assumptions ranging from a dog's emotional response to Kim's recycling habits. (Cans in my house never go in the garbage. )

You don't have to compliment her, and she doesn't have to take your input seriously.  

Moderators note:  I would rather not delete any further posts, however, I will continue to do so if it is made neccessary by the posters.  If you can find nothing positive to say, or you flat don't like the method kim is using, move on to another topic.  These videos were provided as an explanation of how one method works for this particular poster.  They were not provided as a means for anyone who doesn't agree with her to rip her and her training method to shreds.

Nice matters.  Kindly remember that before you post.

Dog_ma

I believe you have demonstrated a lack of understanding regarding the technique, and made numerous assumptions ranging from a dog's emotional response to Kim's recycling habits. (Cans in my house never go in the garbage. )

You don't have to compliment her, and she doesn't have to take your input seriously.  

The nature of silent films is that there are many many interpretation as to what is going on.  Maybe a voice overlay would be helpful to JQP.  If you need to know, I have taken multiple Clicker Trainer courses with different dogs that were of a different in breed, size, and temperament.  I also demo Clicker Training at the foster dog showing at Petsmart.   I do recommend its limited use to basic obedience (never COME) and depending on the dog, I sometimes use treats but mostly encourage the relationship to be the motivator.  Minus the gimmick of a clicker, the training method is very similar to my approach decades ago, depending on the dog.

Final warning.  I will temporarily suspend posting to this thread if posters continue to argue amongst themselves and continue to carry the thread off topic.

snownose

Pj's....I am snickering here.......

 Interesting videos

Usually, a dog would be somewhat slowed down by towing a dragline.....just usually though....not always.....