Things you can Teach with the "KM" philosophy

DPU

No Snownose, the CT was not to keep the dog away but reward the dog for touching the empty pop can or your typical item in a garbage can.  So, please KMc explain how this does not teach the dog to raid the kitchen garbage.   

Also, is it safe to say that you are changing the dog's motivation drive toward the can as a toy?

There is some kind of trick outcome by clicking  and treating 30 times in a 5 minute session.....I think the trick would be to do something with the can....I still don't understand why one has to go through all this to get a wanted response......and yes, teaching a dog to play with trash is absurd.....

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DPU

For example, I noticed in the videos that when multiple dogs where shown and MKc was just focusing on one, the other dogs would perform the same task.  So the unintentional command received by the other dog is getting a negative signal that the requested command was performed or offer but there was no reward but a negative consequence. 

That is an excellent observation.......I usually train each dog separately from the other dogs.....more intense and successful training sessions....

snownose.;... I thought the pop can one was a freeshaping exercise.  I think it was to click and treat for interaction with the can - like the 101 things to do with a box.  You don't necessarily have an end goal in mind.  It's a good way to encourage creativity and for dogs taht are new to that way of learning, it helps them to "learn how to learn".  Thats why there are so many clicks in such a short space.  In fact, if you are going too long between clicks, you need to think of a way to make it easier for the dog to progress by "lowering your criteria".  Yeah, I know it sounds like doing it "the long way round" but don't knock it till you've tried it.. its actually very effective.  I'll have to watch it again to be sure as I could have got it wrong....

swissy - thats a common error.  The idea is to pre-empt the dog misbehaving and give him an alternate, desirable behaviour that is incompatible with the one you don't want.  I think.  I made the same mistake with my dog when I wanted to teach him to stay off a certain bit of grass on our regular walks where we used to live.  What I ended up teaching him was: Go TO that area, I will call you, come back and get a treat!  Not:  Don't go there, do this instead!  Ooops. 

And DPU, I don't think the pop can exercise will teach a dog to bin-raid, just like doing agility won't teach your dog to jump your fence.  It's context specific.  (Usually)

Kim, thank you for sharing your videos.  I think they are great! 

Other things I have noticed ....in all the videos except for one( the hiking) treats are given out each time.....I thought that clicker and treat training will teach the dog and then clicks or treats are no longer necessary.......also, unwanted behavior such as jumping on the trainer is still happening....

snownose

in all the videos except for one( the hiking) treats are given out each time.....I thought that clicker and treat training will teach the dog and then clicks or treats are no longer necessary.......

That's correct.  However, I am under the impression that Kim has shared her training videos with us.  Perhaps you could ask nicely for some videos of her dogs just living, day to day.

luvmyswissy

I did this for days but it didn't stop him for jumping on the couch I believe it enforced it

In my opinion, clicker training is like anything else in that you really have to know what you're doing or, as you've discovered, you can end up actually reinforcing unwanted behavior. For a person to learn how to clicker train properly, they really need to read about it and learn HOW it works before picking up a clicker. And there's a lot of setting the ground rules and the foundation before you're ever ready to start teaching something specific.

Kim's dogs know that when she kneels down with a treat bowl and the clicker, it's time to start doing behaviors to find out what she's wanting them to do. A dog who has never worked with a clicker doesn't have a clue about it. They think they're just getting treated for getting on the couch.

So, before you even start trying to teach a dog not to do something (or to do something) using the clicker, you have to condition the dog's mind to know what a clicker means. It's a process. That's my experience, anyway.

Yes, training is training....I understand that....but, how much is it worth if the dog knows how to do things to a click and treat, but still does the jumping thing.....that is one of the first things I knock out when I start training a dog to be a good behaving dog.....

Aaaand, I have to be honest....there is just way too much food dispensing going on IMO,.......overkill.....

Snownose, in the early days of training a behavior, treats are given each time.  Once a behavior is learned, treats should (ideally) be given intermittently.  If Kim is sharing her early training videos, then consistent treats are totally appropriate. 

As for the other dogs, social animals learn very well through observation and modeling. The "extra" dogs are performing in the hopes of getting a treat, and they are able to see one dog being reinforced.  As long as each dog gets time being reinforced, watching others learn can be a great way to reinforce a behavior.  

Intermittent reinforcement leads to the best outcome - an animal never knows when a treat is coming, and stays motivated.  Think of people and slot machines.  Same idea.  "Maybe this time! Maybe this time!" As long as you reinforce often enough to keep interest alive, being a slot machine will get good results.

And, last but not least, clicker training is used to create behaviors, not eliminate behaviors. (Unless you are making an undesirable behavior impossible through alternate behaviors).

You're just seeing tiny little slices of life though. It's not like living with clicker trained dogs means that kind of food dispensing is happening all the time for everything. These videos were of Kim teaching her dogs new behaviors or upping the ante on ones that have been recently worked on, which is why you see the high rate of reinforcement. That's actually the hallmark of a really good clicker trainer: they see the tiny steps towards the desired behavior and keep the rate of reinforcement really high by seeing those baby steps that most people don't notice and fail to reinforce. You can get a dog to their goal behavior so much faster with a high rate of reinforcement for successive approximations. And then that behavior is learned really solidly (the dog is not at all confused about what you want) and you move to an intermittent level of reinforcement.

I don't get why so many people are so anti-food. If she was offering a tug toy as a reinforcer, I'm sure there would be much less objection. For some reason. If the treats are healthy and small in size (you could just be using your dog's meal ration of kibble if they really like the kibble and will work for it) I don't get what the big difference is between using food, play, or praise. Whatever turns your dog on.
 

Chuffy

Perhaps you could ask nicely for some videos of her dogs just living, day to day.

Yeah, I have seen that, like some dogs climbing furniture and laying on a dining room table......

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/64954.aspx?PageIndex=2

snownose

Yes, training is training....I understand that....but, how much is it worth if the dog knows how to do things to a click and treat, but still does the jumping thing.....that is one of the first things I knock out when I start training a dog to be a good behaving dog....

Apples and oranges. There is no either or here. Behavior shaping is valuable for its own merits, as is teaching a dog not to jump.  You might focus on jumping first, but that is a question of individual priorities. FWIW, I prefer to get basic behavior management down first, but that is a preference of mine and not a moral absolute.

Aaaand, I have to be honest....there is just way too much food dispensing going on IMO,.......overkill.....

Sure, it isn't your thing.  It is Kim's. Neither is the "correct" way to do things. 

Dog_ma

And, last but not least, clicker training is used to create behaviors, not eliminate behaviors. (Unless you are making an undesirable behavior impossible through alternate behaviors).

I remember several members claiming that if only positive behavior is enforced the negative will eventually fade away......

Dog_ma

As for the other dogs, social animals learn very well through observation and modeling. The "extra" dogs are performing in the hopes of getting a treat, and they are able to see one dog being reinforced.  As long as each dog gets time being reinforced, watching others learn can be a great way to reinforce a behavior.  

Charactize it or justify it any way you want, the bottom line is the "extra" dog is disappointed.  So simple to teach a dog its name and give the dog its own identity.