Things you can Teach with the "KM" philosophy

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy
    snownose.;... I thought the pop can one was a freeshaping exercise.  I think it was to click and treat for interaction with the can - like the 101 things to do with a box.  You don't necessarily have an end goal in mind.  It's a good way to encourage creativity and for dogs taht are new to that way of learning, it helps them to "learn how to learn".  Thats why there are so many clicks in such a short space.  In fact, if you are going too long between clicks, you need to think of a way to make it easier for the dog to progress by "lowering your criteria".  Yeah, I know it sounds like doing it "the long way round" but don't knock it till you've tried it.. its actually very effective.  I'll have to watch it again to be sure as I could have got it wrong....

    It was precisely a freeshaping exercise. The goal with freeshaping is to reward new and novel behaviours, to teach creativity. It would be great if the people who are arguing against this to take a few moments and Google freeshaping to see what it's actually all about. I wasn't teaching her to avoid the pop can, or even to do any cute tricks (although it ended with teaching her to tip it up on its end!). It was simply to engage her mind and to try new behaviours. And wouldn't you know - no stress! She was as calm as a cucumber. Because she knows exactly how the  rules of the game go.

    • Gold Top Dog

    snownose
    Aaaand, I have to be honest....there is just way too much food dispensing going on IMO,.......overkill.....

    I think this is a facet of misunderstanding the workings of clicker teaching. It DOES involve rapid dispensal of treats, if treats are your food of choice. It's not overkill, that's a part of using a clicker. The goal here is, you teach quickly, then you wean out the treats quickly. Yes, my dogs can do all of these behaviours, and do them for days on end, without any food reward. What you were seeing there is the process of getting there. I chose to use food as a reward. I could, and maybe I should, go back and do a video of "everything we do without food rewards". Would that make you feel more at ease?

    I don't get why so many people are so anti-food. If she was offering a tug toy as a reinforcer, I'm sure there would be much less objection. For some reason. If the treats are healthy and small in size (you could just be using your dog's meal ration of kibble if they really like the kibble and will work for it) I don't get what the big difference is between using food, play, or praise. Whatever turns your dog on.

    Hmm, but I WAS offering tug as a reinforcer! For the wait/distance work video! No treats there! I've also got a video where I've taught Poker his entire freestack with only a squirrel toy. Perhaps I should share that too! Or doing our agility run with no treats, I've got those too!

    Yeah, I have seen that, like some dogs climbing furniture and laying on a dining room table......

    Oh, wow, now you've got to be kidding me! First I'd like to mention, our dogs ARE allowed to have access to many parts of the home that other dogs wouldn't be. They ARE allowed on all furniture except for dining tables and end tables. They ARE allowed on the coffee table, they ARE allowed to look at things. You'll notice that Gaci, while looking on the TV, is simply looking. Not doing anything. Libbi on the table, yeah, we fixed the issue, but by gosh you'd think our dogs lived on the dining room table! They were photos portraying funny incidents, it's sickening to see people twist them into something they are not.

    Charactize it or justify it any way you want, the bottom line is the "extra" dog is disappointed.  So simple to teach a dog its name and give the dog its own identity.

    Yes, it certainly is. It's also so simple to sit back and ask questions before assuming you are the all-knowing person of other people's videos. What makes you believe that the other dogs did not get reinforced? For that matter, what makes you think that I WANTED to reinforce a different dog when I might "not" have been talking to that dog? Our dogs all have their own identities. That I can assure you. But we often do "group work" where all dogs are rewarded, and we also have a dog like Kamara who thinks that she's the queen bee and should be rewarded all the time (this is a dog, that yes, IS spoiled, thanks not to me but her "daddy", so I live with it. I can only be responsible for so many creatures). So if you had have kindly asked, you would have received a complete answer. But since you "*content removed*

    I can't speak to what Kim uses, but when I use training treats they are smaller than my pinkie fingernail.  And chewing isn't something my dogs at least feel is required for anything smaller than a fly.


    Pinkie fingernail? *G* I'll go even smaller. ;-) When working with my pap she gets something that is more of a taste than real food...lol. A smear of cheese, or a crumb of cookie. What you see as "treat" often is nothing more than a taste of food, it's not kibble-sized treats (although I have used kibble on occasion) or dog cookies. They are tiiiiiny.

     

    I believe I have asked you legitimate questions and have made comments to enhance your "finished products of behaviors".  So please, let us know if your wish is only to have compliments. 

    That's only because once again you are assuming that the comments you are making apply to my situation. And they don't. We have very different views of how to live with dogs, and once again you assumed that you knew the solution to a situation you had no idea about. You see her attempting new behaviours as "devastating" and "failing", I see it as "I'm not working with you right now, so please don't interfere". When I actively work with two dogs at once, both dogs are rewarded. Perhaps I should have shut all the other dogs away in a room, so they wouldn't "hear" us working, but personally I prefer to work in a real-world environment, not a sterile one. Distractions are a part of life. And you saw one, count it ONE dog in the video trying to get rewarded (Tikkle the pap was just trying to be on TV...*G*). Our house has 14 dogs. That displays 12 other dogs that were NOT all "testing out" behaviours in an attempt for reward. A higher statistic that way I'm afraid. Kamara, the girl you saw, simply needs a lesson in self-control. One which I am not in a position to teach her, as she is "daddy's girl".

     

    The nature of silent films is that there are many many interpretation as to what is going on.   Maybe a voice overlay would be helpful to JQP

    But none of those films are silent. All have perfect sound to them. Perhaps the "silence" you hear is just that: silence. As talking during teaching can be quite distracting! Any school teacher would tell you that.

     Minus the gimmick of a clicker,


    Seeing that you view the clicker as a gimmick, you can't blame somebody when they get the feeling that you entire posts are loaded with other motives. It's not that you directly make certain assumptions, but your natural language defies this whole post. You continually assume you know things that you don't. You put terminology in sentences in a way that assumes gospel. The clicker is far from a gimmick. If you feel it's a gimmick, that's your right of course. But it's a very valuable teaching tool, the most valuable that I have found thus far, and I find it the most effective means to mark behaviour. So gimmick or no gimmick, it's here to stay I'm afraid!

    Personally, I'm not here just to get compliments. I enjoy having my videos discussed and even my methods challenged. But honestly? This conversation is quite boring and I'm disappointed....lol. I was expecting something more intellectual. Because it's the same arguments you can find answered on ANY amateur clicker training site! "Too much food"...been beaten to death. The most interesting thing I've seen on the whole thread is having Espencer calculate how often I was giving reinforcements. I can write that down as useful data. ;-) It seems some people have lots of time on their hands. I wish I had that much extra time on my hands these days!

    Seriously, I can post a video of our dogs doing "everyday" things using those same behaviours. If people really require that to believe that I don't indeed carry a clicker around all day, I'll get on that! After my 40-page research paper, research experiment, and exams are over. Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV26iy2nh_c

    A video portraying each dog knowing their 'identity" as I ask each of them to sit or perform some behaviour. You'll notice "all" of the dogs won't all attempt the behaviour at once, only those who I have asked.

    You'll also notice how Gaci was a bit uncomfortable doing a "dance" in that situation,even though the other behaviours were fine for her. It was because earlier in the day she did it and accidentally hopped on another dog and got told off for it. So she hesitated to do it in a big group. You'll also notice Phoenix was not as responsive. She is a very sensitive girl with very personal issues, so I don't hold it against her if she doesn't respond lightning-fast. Even looking at her or approaching her the wrong way can bother her (she wasn't always that way, she went through a very difficult life). 

    Oh, and before people ask - when I say "cookies", I mean reward. Not necessarily food. *G* It just has a nicer ring to it. But I'm sure I'll have it used against me anyhow!

     Oh, and once again you'll see the repeat "offender", aka Kamara, butting in everybody's way. No matter where I turned, UP she pops, right into center view of the camera! Perhaps that'll glean a little more information into "natural" life with dogs at my home? And that Kamara is indeed an "exception" to the rule here. She does and gets away with a lot of things that the other dogs don't. That's just how it is..haha.

    Oh, and no cookies!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim,

    In reference to the animals climbing furniture and laying on the table, you have to understand I have large dogs which none of them weigh under 70lbs......that is why it's hard for me to grasp dogs being allowed on all types of furniture.....could you imagine the mayem that would be taken place? In the last video I see no cookies involved and your dogs are listening well, but, once again....the attempted jumping up on the trainer is hard for me to grasp.....my youngest GSD weighs around 93lbs at this point....any attempted jumping up by him would have me taking a serious fall.....I guess it is different for owners with small dogs, but when one owns large dogs the above mentioned issues are serious ones.....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Moderator speaking.

    To all posting in this thread. Let's save the animal welfare discussion for another thread. THIS thread is not about Seaworld or sea lions...keep it on topic...which is the videos presented. OT posts are being removed....so do bear that in mind.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sorry Rwbeagles, I can respect that.  I just tried to share the core reason of why my training philosphy is so different from KMa and why I made the comments in this thread about the video.

    KMa, you are right I make assumptions and I will when given no other information.  The opening statement was not clear as to what you wanted.  I watched all the videos and in my mind I thought there was a greater purpose for you going through all this effort and documenting your philosphy.  In the future you may possibly use these videos for your research projects, possibly as a formal training tool,  even maybe the remote possibility of the demonostrations being for sale.    

    I freely admit I am JQP with a lot of exposure to dogs, their medical conditions, behaviors, training methods, and also meeting the public.  I look out for JQP dog owner and expose them to what I think they can handle.  My suggestions of a voice overlay, not using objects that may cause JQP problems, or making sure that commands are directed at one dog and only that dog responds are prudent suggestions to help JQP.  But based on your response back to me, I can only respond by saying Good Job.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim,

     I just want to say that I really enjoyed your videos VERY much!!  And thank you for posting them.  And for those who care, I failed badley at stoping unwanted behaviors with the clicker and treats but was very successful training many other behaviors and enjoy working with my dogs and using rewards!!

    As I read and learn I am hoping that as new dogs enter my life I can use more ane more positive reinforcement to get what I want!

     As for dogs on furniture..  Love it!!

     

    And..  lets not forget about KIDs in CRATES!!

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     OT posts are being removed....so do bear that in mind.

     

    Moderator once again...

    How to stop behaviors would make a great topic for a NEW thread. I am not sure why folks are having such difficulty with the on topic requests here....but once again....stay on topic which was the VIDEOS posted or start a new thread.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim, thanks for posting those videos.  I subscribed to you!  YAY!  Great looking puppers! 

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Xerxes
    Kim, thanks for posting those videos.  I subscribed to you!  YAY!  Great looking puppers! 

    Really? I'm not sure I had any subscribers before...lol. I didn't know you COULD subscribe. Wink Shows how much I know about modern technology. I just put them up there as a way to share. That's cool that you can subscribe to videos. Guess you'll get to see all the birdie videos as well *G*.

     DPU, I understand what you mean about having large dogs and not having that ability to allow dogs on certain things. For what it's worth, I agree with you. But realize that my dogs are NOT 50-100 lbs. They are 23 lbs and under, all the way down to 5 lbs. So it's a very different rule structure we live with than you do. When we had Labradors, they were not allowed on all of the furniture, no. So while I see completely where you are coming from, you have to take a second to see where others are coming from. Stick out tongue Once again, it does come down to stopping yourself from assuming things and actually ask questions when you aren't sure of something. I'm not trying to criticize you, but making a general statement that when one is in doubt, it's always best to ask.

    As for the dogs jumping up. The dog you'll see basically doing all of the jumping up at me specifically (there were lots of shots of dogs jumping around....but only one dog jumped up consistently) is Poker. He was a Czech import boy we got at almost 12 weeks of age. He came with a strong reinforcement of jumping up, to the point that he thought that was how you were supposed to greet people! So it took a lot of work to work on that, to the point where he still occasionally tries the behaviour when he is very aroused, but it's really starting to disappear now. During filming of that video, you'll notice I either totally ignored the behaviour, or punished it by moving away from him on to something else. I also acknowledged when he was "not jumping" - standing or sitting was perfectly okay with me.

    It's the same way where in Shimmer's video, I invited her to jump up against me as a reward. She doesn't naturally jump up on her own, but she will when I tell her its okay to do that.

    I'll be the first to admit that our small dogs get away with things within the home that it would not be feasible for a large dog to get away with. But that's not ignorance or poor ownership, or a lack of teaching, that's a conscious decision to allow them to do those things. It comes back to the issue of what is a behaviour problem for one person, is not for another. I don't care if my dogs are on the coffee table. Honestly, they use it as a lookout. But I don't want them touching "my" drink if it's on the coffee table, and they don't. So while I have alleviated the rule of "being on table", there is still a rule of "don't drink from my cup please!". It all comes down to what you choose to allow to happen in your home. In our home, in that case, our dogs are allowed to do a lot of things larger dogs wouldn't be allowed to, things we never would have permitted our Labradors to do. But we have small dogs, so we are allowed to make up whatever rules that we desire. The dogs are still happy and willing partners, and they are not wild or out of control. Believe me, if you saw Kamara when she walks on top of the computer desk....*G*. But again, Kamara is a very "special" case and is very spoiled, and there will be no changing that. She gets away with things that none of the other dogs in the home do. But she's very a happy camper nonetheless.

    In the end though, it all comes down to not picking apart every little aspect of a person's life. If there's something you really don't get, such as seeing a situation where I don't use treats (which I have several videos in that list where that happens), by all means ask. But it's really getting unreasonable to point out how many treats used per teaching session. It's unreasonable to start picking quibbles about reliability, when I made a note in the beginning that those were teaching journals, and most of them (if not all) were not the complete picture. The point is, dogs are living, sentient, thinking beings with their own personalities and moods. They are not robots, and they are subject to their own whims as well. Dogs will always do "dog" things, and regardless of the method of teaching you use, dogs will always find something that humans find less than desirable. So there's really no point in pointing out one situation where dog A did ____, or one situation where dog B did ______. I'm sure every single person on this site could make a list of things their dog did, at one point, that they found less than desirable and worked with the dog to fix.

    So yes, I had a dog that once climbed onto the kitchen table. We've got another that apparently learned from her, a little social facilitation at its best, that we are working on. The others have never attempted to get on the table at all. They are allowed on the coffee table, but know the end tables are off limits. They don't climb on the table in the corner of the room, but they are allowed on all other chairs and furniture. They aren't allowed on the bathroom counter, or to climb up on the grooming table on their own, but are free to choose a bed of their liking or even sit in a chair beside us. We have one girl who loves to sit in a kitchen chair with us while we eat, and the chair is tucked in so she just lays on it under the table. It's rather cute, so we allow her to do it, although she is not permitted to stick her nose up to the table though. Our dogs are free to dig in the dirt outside, and some of them do, it's their yard after all. Some people would never allow that. All it is, is a matter of personal preference and what you wish to allow. Just because we allow it, doesn't mean our dogs are wild. It means that it's something that doesn't bother us, and it's us who live with the dogs, not anybody else!