Dunbar and Donaldson take on the Dominance Theory

dgriego

  Watching a few episodes of Cesar's would not educate you enough to know when to apply the proper timing in all cases. Another part that I will also agree with is assessing why a dog is displaying aggression or fear is not always easy. And the reason why he is behaving in the manner that he is is crucial to correcting it. If you label a dog dominant aggressive and he is in fact fear aggressive then you can make it worse by treating him as if he were dominant and just needed to be taught his place in the pack

I think what I was trying to get at is that I have a huge amount of respect for the trainer I quoted.  He's all that and a bag of kibble.  Not just from what he says, but but from his relationships with his own dogs and the way he handled Ivan.  This man reads dogs like I can't believe. I'm pretty sure he can watch a few episodes of DW and form an opinion on timing, or technique.  

I think you would really like this trainer, actually.  He specializes in more challenging breeds and in working with aggressive dogs.  He also is extremely compassionate and tuned in to the animals.  Ha, can you tell *I* have a small case of hero worship?  Not quite that bad, but I'll stop raving about him.

"Yes I agree this is most likely true, I am unsure which scares me the most, them walking around with no skills at all or them walking around with a tiny portion of Cesar skills."

frankly I think they and their dogs would be far better off walking around with NO skills. CM's methods aren't even close to what the majority of dog trainers and behaviorists, of all philosophies, consider to be safe and effective methods for non-professionals to use when  training and rehabilitating dogs.

spiritdogs

This lady lives in Massachusetts and owns a toy dog.  Gimme a break. 

I hope you're not implying that Massachusetts residents with toy dogs are immune to having significant behavioral issues with their animals that require serious professional help? /glad she moved to Connecticut before looking for trainers, lol...

Dog_ma, thanks for sharing that about your corrections-using trainer not liking Cesar Millan. I thought that was really enlightening. See folks, not all his critics run around just sticking clickers and kibble up their butts!

 LOL Cita! You have a way with words.

cita

spiritdogs

This lady lives in Massachusetts and owns a toy dog.  Gimme a break. 

I hope you're not implying that Massachusetts residents with toy dogs are immune to having significant behavioral issues with their animals that require serious professional help?

Oh, c'mon, cita, at least give me credit for being enough of a trainer to recognize that THIS toy dog was pretty normal and did NOT have any significant issues.  Of course I realize that there are some that do, but I was citing a particular client, and I think you know that.  

Dog_ma

 LOL Cita! You have a way with words.

Amen to that. Sitting on a clicker might be painful.

So, no one yet has defined dominance. I think a better description might be willfull, for problematic behavior. Even that might be inaccurate, as a dog that is constantly taking other toys may have separation anxiety or a fear of losing resources, and fear and anxiety are not best treated by punishments. An independent breed might be "willfull" in that they seek what is rewarding and you've got to trump the reward they are seeking with one that is much better.

L. David Mech, after actually observing an undisturbed pack of wolves (notably, a pack of arctic wolves) did not find so much evidence of domination and submission, per se, and any case of a family member rolling itself and licking the mouth of the parent was just that, child-parent interaction that was a bonding experience. Add to that the fact that dogs have different behaviors and a vastly different social potentiality, and you find very little to base modeling dogs after wolves and very little to describe or catalog "dominant" behavior in dogs. Are we still defining dominance as a physical bid for superiority or the right to lead? If so, then the dog who is supposedly "dominant" is not and is striving to be so. The real leader can't be bothered, unless physically attacked. If the dog seeking dominance is not truly dominant, then they are best helped by being reassured of their place and consistency of inclusion, ala 4IC solution to her aforementioned problem. Duke was a leader of Shadow, primarily because he was older and knew more and Shadow "looked up" to him long after he could tower over Duke, a JRT. There was no way for Duke to "physically dominate" Shadow and watching them play was hilarious.

Is not listening to someone an act of dominance? How so?

OTOH, it seems that most here agree with Donaldson's point about wolves and dominance. In which case, she didn't say anything wrong and only caused a brouhaha by mentioning dog whispering. Was she referring to the original dog whisperer? Probably not. In the same breath, many other trainers have based their systems on dominance and wolves. And so, she is also disagreeing with them and countering their statements, as is her right to do so. Her statement could have named Koehler, Frawley, et al, by name, and I doubt it would get the same reaction.

So, I guess another question would be, if a person could disagree with Donaldson's statements on wolves and dominance and dogs, how would you do so? This, I think, would require defining dominance and what it means and how it is best dealt with.

Also, it is not impossible for a +R trainer to use punishment and I mean +P. It is best if that +P is part of the environment, rather than just coming from the human. Specifically, scat mats. Those can react instantly, far faster than a human. And the aversion is not identified with the human so that when the human recalls, the dog will do so because they have nothing to fear from the human, especially if it gets them away from that nasty noise they hear when they place their paws on the counter.

 So I just got back from the APDT annual conference where I heard both Donaldson and Dunbar talk.

I admit I haven't read most of the replies on this topic as I'm catching up on so much currently, but I do have to say that I believe one of the common stances on dominance in the +R community is that it does not exist between humans and dogs as traditionally thought, but that there is some heirarchy among dogs. 

That's not to say that one dog is always "dominant" or "submissive" but that in certain sitiuations and with certain group dynamics some dogs will be more "dominant" than others for varying periods of time.  One of the major things that caught my attention was the idea that dominance is way more fluid than many traditional trainers (and CM) seem to believe.  This info is supported by studies - it's not just fluff btw - and I've seen it often with the dogs I work with that live in multi dog families and/or attend dog parks.

(My 2 cents, take it or leave it)
 

Just a general moderators note here folks to remind you all to watch your tones and sarcasm which could be construed as a personal attack.

Ron....this is for you.....as I can tell you do not believe that dominance exists within a structured pack of dogs, like mine or anybody else's....correct? Correct me now....lol....

How can it be then, that younger dogs, or challenging dogs, brought to a pack....be it by adoption or rescue, will eventually show their true nature, and challenge dogs already of pack position.......how does that happen, and why are there fights over pack position, if not for dominance in the pack, and once a dog has reached that place, how does said dog keep said position?  Dominance.....perhaps????????

Just wondering..........

stardog85

 So I just got back from the APDT annual conference where I heard both Donaldson and Dunbar talk.

I admit I haven't read most of the replies on this topic as I'm catching up on so much currently, but I do have to say that I believe one of the common stances on dominance in the +R community is that it does not exist between humans and dogs as traditionally thought, but that there is some heirarchy among dogs. 

That's not to say that one dog is always "dominant" or "submissive" but that in certain sitiuations and with certain group dynamics some dogs will be more "dominant" than others for varying periods of time.  One of the major things that caught my attention was the idea that dominance is way more fluid than many traditional trainers (and CM) seem to believe.  This info is supported by studies - it's not just fluff btw - and I've seen it often with the dogs I work with that live in multi dog families and/or attend dog parks.

(My 2 cents, take it or leave it)
 

I'll take it!  

I've seen the way dominant behavior flows between two dogs on a constant basis.  When I had a foster here, Xerxes would defer to her inside the house...inviting her to play by approaching from underneath, and deferring possession of prized objects to her.  Outside, the exact opposite was true, he displayed more dominant behavior-initiation of play from above, retaining possession of objects and other behaviors including demonstration of his physical strength and speed.   i always found it very interesting to see the seamless transfer of such an important (seemingly) position and how the dogs didn't really seem to miss a step. 

ron2

So, no one yet has defined dominance.

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snownose

.how does that happen, and why are there fights over pack position, if not for dominance in the pack, and once a dog has reached that place, how does said dog keep said position?  Dominance.....perhaps????????

 

I know you said that it was for Ron, but can I answer?

There is a "dominance" effect in any group of animals, even in dogs.  However with dogs there is a fluidity to dominance with regard to environmental conditions or situational dominance.  As I stated above, when I had my foster girl, she was in charge inside but the "dominance" role went to Xerxes outside.  Seamless transition.  But because Gaia was a better scenthound than Xerxes is, if she caught a scent and wanted to follow it, she became the leader.  If Xerxes caught sight of the prey and ranged ahead, she would follow him.  

Dog_ma

dgriego

  Watching a few episodes of Cesar's would not educate you enough to know when to apply the proper timing in all cases. Another part that I will also agree with is assessing why a dog is displaying aggression or fear is not always easy. And the reason why he is behaving in the manner that he is is crucial to correcting it. If you label a dog dominant aggressive and he is in fact fear aggressive then you can make it worse by treating him as if he were dominant and just needed to be taught his place in the pack

I think what I was trying to get at is that I have a huge amount of respect for the trainer I quoted.  He's all that and a bag of kibble.  Not just from what he says, but but from his relationships with his own dogs and the way he handled Ivan.  This man reads dogs like I can't believe. I'm pretty sure he can watch a few episodes of DW and form an opinion on timing, or technique.  

I think you would really like this trainer, actually.  He specializes in more challenging breeds and in working with aggressive dogs.  He also is extremely compassionate and tuned in to the animals.  Ha, can you tell *I* have a small case of hero worship?  Not quite that bad, but I'll stop raving about him

  When I said most people I was refering to Joe Public with little if any dog knowledge. I am sure the trainer would be able to since he is a dog person.

 I am jealous that you have such a trainer. I have looked all over albuquerque for one, I take Hektor to classes at a local place, they are very nice but they have no real experience with tougher breeds. I also cannot find any schulthund people here. Ask him if he knows anyone in NM that he could recomend. Or maybe stuff him in a box and send him out here. I promise to take good care of him and send him back safely.

Xerxes

snownose

.how does that happen, and why are there fights over pack position, if not for dominance in the pack, and once a dog has reached that place, how does said dog keep said position?  Dominance.....perhaps????????

 

 

 

I know you said that it was for Ron, but can I answer?

There is a "dominance" effect in any group of animals, even in dogs.  However with dogs there is a fluidity to dominance with regard to environmental conditions or situational dominance.  As I stated above, when I had my foster girl, she was in charge inside but the "dominance" role went to Xerxes outside.  Seamless transition.  But because Gaia was a better scenthound than Xerxes is, if she caught a scent and wanted to follow it, she became the leader.  If Xerxes caught sight of the prey and ranged ahead, she would follow him.  

Fights over pack position can and do occur.  I think it's more rare than fights over other things though. 

 

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