Dunbar and Donaldson take on the Dominance Theory

Interesting, i dont think CM has ever published or even say something against R+, wonder why other trainers feel the need to do so against dominance

I dont like broccoli, i think that makes broccoli be bad for everybody right?

I agree espencer....just another way of getting a battle started here....taking on the dominance theory.....dear God.....

Well, the video is not targeted to the general public. It's targeted towards helping dog professionals deal effectively with the Millan juggernaut. I'm on a few communities that are primarily made up of dog professionals and this topic comes up a lot: what do you do when someone comes to your first class expecting you to be Cesar Millan and you're not? What do you do when someone starts arguing dominance with you in class because of what they've seen on TV? How do you address that, as a professional? 

Well, stand behind your reputation....simple...does it really look professional to take it to this point....how childish and unprofessional.....

 From watching CM's more recent programs he seems to have moved away from the pure dominance stance he had in the beginning. He still speaks of dominance and submission but not as often.

 Anyone else see that or am I seeing things?

espencer

wonder why other trainers feel the need to do so against dominance

Because dominance theory is based upon observations of wolves, not on observations of dogs.  And those wolf studies have since been disproven. 

Xerxes

Because dominance theory is based upon observations of wolves, not on observations of dogs.  And those wolf studies have since been disproven. 

Observation of wolves that CM has never done, he actually only observed dogs, i guess is just that CM's bad luck that both groups of animals are named "pack", that both leaders on either pack are named "alpha", but hey, if CM one day decides to name them differently (just like when he uses the word "energy";) then he is "confusing people with his own terms", well i guess CM will never be able to make everybody happy

houndlove

what do you do when someone comes to your first class expecting you to be Cesar Millan and you're not?

Um, you tell them that, that you are not CM 

houndlove

What do you do when someone starts arguing dominance with you in class because of what they've seen on TV? How do you address that, as a professional?

Well i think if you are a professional then you already studied dominance and what it is therefore you know what to say

I dont see any where where it says is directed to professionals instead of general public, i mean why should you address something to someone who knows already what it is? is like if an insurance company tries to teach firefighters how the fire can be started, i think the insurance company could be better by actually addressing those concerns to the general public that does not have much knowledge as the professionals

It also helps to remember that this video was made during the higher popularity of dominance theory. Now, of course, with a few recent episodes, people can say "dominance? I didn't here Cesar say dominance." But they do have to deal with the fallout of people who watch the show and assume that their dog is trying to be dominant. We get it here with newbies coming and it sound like they are quoting the DW show and how their dog is being dominant, when it is usually not the case.

In addition to that, they are trying to point out the fallibility of the wolf model for dogs, as well as assuming dominance behavior in true wolf packs, which is usually not the case, as a true wolf pack is usually a family, not a compilation of dissociated canids. Yet, dogs can form alliances regardless of breed or initial group, another behavior remarkable different than wolves. So, the point of the video is that the dominance theory is fiat. And it's most visible public spoken, CM, might have been wrong. Even if it hurts some feelings.

Just thought I would pass along my observations.

snownose

Well, stand behind your reputation....simple...does it really look professional to take it to this point....how childish and unprofessional.....

It doesn't seem unprofessional or childish to me. I only saw a short clip, in which the use of the word dominance was called silly.  That is a valid professional opinion.  I didn't see anyone call CM a poopyhead or anything.

Heck, in academia people skewer each other's theories.  Criticism can very much be a part of some professions.  

 I do take a bit of issue with the clip I saw, because the woman (is that Donaldson?) is claiming that dominance is silly because wolves aren't dominant as such, but most of us here agree that dogs aren't wolves.  Additionally, dogs are not born into a family system of related dogs, and continue life within that family system.  So I don't see why it matters if wolves display dominance or alphas.
 

ron2

In addition to that, they are trying to point out the fallibility of the wolf model for dogs, as well as assuming dominance behavior in true wolf packs, which is usually not the case, as a true wolf pack is usually a family, not a compilation of dissociated canids. Yet, dogs can form alliances regardless of breed or initial group, another behavior remarkable different than wolves. So, the point of the video is that the dominance theory is fiat. And it's most visible public spoken, CM, might have been wrong. Even if it hurts some feelings.

 I do not believe that the old wolf model is true for dogs, and I know that most wolf packs are family units and much of what was originally thought to be true of wolves is not thought to be true today.

 I guess the difference for me is that does not discount the value and need for leadership and balance when working with dogs. Regardless of the reasons behind someone's views and regardless if those reasons are true or not, the concept of a strong, balanced, consistant, calm and assertive leader is valid. There is a huge difference in handling a dog or dogs when one takes a leadership approach versus one who does not. This is proven every day households when the one who does this can point a finger and say a word and have the dogs go lie in their beds and the significant other has trouble getting the dog or dogs to listen.

 Most people who own and handle a lot of dogs at one time call them a pack of dogs. They assume the leadership of the pack of dogs, that does not have to mean that they hold to a hard fast dogs are like wolves belief.

 It is interesting that so many breed sites talk about the importance of pack leadership.

The Dogo Argentinio Club: Here is a quote from one of their articles Is The Dogo Right For You : "If you don’t know how to establish pack order and you don’t know how to establish that you, and all human members of your family as alphas in the pack, then the dogo is NOT for you. "

Here is a quote from the Akita Club of America : "Any dog in its relationship with other dogs and with people fits onto a scale of what is most often called "dominance behavior." At the upper end is the dog that does what he wants when he wants and enforces his will if he is thwarted--the alpha, the most dominant dog. At the lower end is the dog that seems to have no ego strength at all-the omega or most submissive one. "

Cane Corso Club of America : "The Cane Corso requires a great deal of attention and training, so if your not prepared to make this commitment then maybe the Cane Corso is not the dog for you, also a person that doesn't have experience with a dominant dog. Corsos, especially males, can be very dominant and will challenge you for what he perceives to be leadership of the pack (your home and family). "

Neopolitian Mastiff of America in answer to a question :"This is just a wild guess, but , it sounds like he spends most if not all the time with you, he obeys only you and respects you, I think your whole family needs to get a lil more involved , taking him out for walks,training him, playing with him (with out your presence), i believe your neo only sees you , as his master and commander and not the whole familly."

Malamute Club of America :Alaskan Malamutes can be quite boisterous and even rowdy, especially during their growing years. They will try to challenge the family for the top or "alpha" role. With a large dog (they grow to 65lbs-85lbs and up) this cannot be allowed to happen. The family must learn how to properly deal with this for everyone's sake.

 I wonder how many other breed club sites there might be that talk about leadership, pack principles, and dominance? I am fairly certain that they did not all just learn this from CM and I am also fairly certain that most of these people have some idea about the breeds they are discussing. Club sites normally consist of people very dedicated the the breed and people who know it well.

 So dogs and wolves not being the same may be true, and old wolf pack theorys may be false, but for me that does not change the principles nor the need for the principles.

Edited to add: They may think they are taking on CM and that he is the most visible person who talks about dominance, pack leadership and pack principles but IMO they are taking on the majority of dogdom and especially so when you are talking about some of the working breeds.

I have no issue with people not being able to agree with a certain style of training.......but, to take it to this level is a new one.....CM pretty much has shown a very matured approach of dog rehabilitation.......he doesn't claim any of his critics are idiots, nor does he "Take them on", so to speak......he does what he does....no negativity spread at all.....this can't be said of above mentioned folks.......dominance does exist.....within my pack......to totally count it out is silly........

If there wasn't a dominance factor in a pack of dogs there wouldn't be younger dogs challenging older dogs....please........use your head.....

 Another example, a herd of herbavores......no killing instinct, but, will fight over feeding grounds, breeding grounds....and being in charge of a whole herd......how can anyone discount the fact of dominance in a pack of dogs.........

CM is a dog trainer, but he is also a celebrity with celebrity power.  Anyone with an opposing viewpoint who is NOT a celebrity is going to have work three times as hard to be heard. I can sympathize with the Donaldsons and Dunbars.

 Plus Milan is dead sexy.
 

espencer

i dont think CM has ever published or even say something against R+, wonder why other trainers feel the need to do so against dominance

Read above post for the answer ;)

Seriously, academia is filled with sparring and criticizing contradictory (or just differing) ideas. You have Dr. A publish his theory that humans are descended from basketballs. Then Dr. B publishes *his* theory that humans are actually descended from sea snails. Then Dr. A publishes a paper called "Why Dr. B is WRONG" and Dr. B returns the favor.

Disagreement is healthy. I don't understand why people get so defensive of Cesar Millan - if he's so great, what's wrong with someone else having different ideas? Shouldn't his ideas stand up to criticism? Sometimes I feel almost like he has something to hide or like there's some sort of secret brotherhood, lol! "Intruders in our way of thinking! We must defend the master!" (Just kidding! Trying to insert some humor, please don't shoot me!)

Ceasar has become such a celebrity these days that I've had, on several occasions, people who haven't even owned dogs come up to me and tell me how to train my dog because they saw something on "The Dog Whisperer." Talk about notoriety! I don't think it's unreasonable for other trainers to attempt to "take on" what is essentially his current monopoly on the general public's conception of dog training.

When I have people without dogs come up to me and initiate a conversation about clicker training, then I'll believe that all trainers are on equal-publicity footing. Until then, in my book, everyone else is allowed to be a little extra pushy to pick up the slack.

dgriego

From watching CM's more recent programs he seems to have moved away from the pure dominance stance he had in the beginning. He still speaks of dominance and submission but not as often.

 Anyone else see that or am I seeing things?

I see this too. 

And I don't think that the methods CM or Jan Fennel uses are necessarily bad, just beacuse of the use of the word dominance.  I think that the ideas behind those methods may be flawed and what they do works for another reason.  I find CM does things I disagree with less as time goes by.

Example:  When you come home, ignore the dog until AFTER he has calmed down.  Result - the dog learns to calm hoimself quickly upon your return so that he is rewarded with attention.  His jumping up, barking, highly aroused state is not reinforced even by a look or a reprimand.  Some claim that the dog has calmed and started "behaving" because you have, by remaining aloof, acted as an "alpha" would.  But *I* think you've simply used negative punishment (witholding your attention) when the dog is aroused and "misbehaving" and you have use positive reinforcement (attention, praise) when he is being calm and able to respond to a quiet "sit".

PERHAPS.  Both are true.  Perhaps true "alpha" dogs and wolves are both smart enough to reinforce only what they want to reinforce and remain aloof and leading by example at other times.  Who really knows?  The bottom line is - we can only speculate.