Dunbar and Donaldson take on the Dominance Theory

houndlove

Like this you mean?

That story right there infuriates me in ways that make it hard for me to even form words. And I'm not really blaming Cesar Millan for that at all--just the ignorant pieces of you-know-what who can't read a disclaimer, apparently. 

Should we get rid of all the cooking knives in the world just because some people misuse them to kill other people? If you use the knife for what was invented i think you have a very valuable tool

Kim_MacMillan

Well, I haven't talked to them on the phone lately, but I can be pretty sure they won't mention a specific trainer's name once in the DVD

 

Well in the video preview they start talking about wolves (????), well we already know dogs are not wolves and i know no body here (or CM) compares dogs with wolves so maybe they are talking about someone else indeed, after that she starts talking about dominance on kids (?????), well if we know dogs are not wolves we know for sure they are not kids so i dont see the point on that, BUT after that she starts talking about dominance on cheetas, sea horses, etc (?????????????????????????????????????????????)

But just like you said, if you really reach, I'm sure some people can turn anything they desire into something that has to do with dominance

 

Spence, did you miss the part where I said I didn't blame Cesar for that? But sometimes people in these discussions seem incredulous that people do real harm to dogs by disregarding that disclaimer, and I've seen evidence on several different occasions that this does happen.

 Cesar has said in interviews many times that his personal heroes are motivational speakers, not anyone in the dog world. And he definitely styles himself as one as well which I think he'd freely admit if you asked him. But he motivates people (and he's very good at that on his show, though I've heard mixed reviews of his in-person seminars) and then says they shouldn't do what he just motivated them to want to do. And that creates problems.
 

houndlove

Spence, did you miss the part where I said I didn't blame Cesar for that?

 

Given that disclaimers are being pretty much pooh-poohed on this forum, it would seem prudent, in a discussion of hot button issues, to not refer (i.e., link) to something that might seem ... rather pointed?! (Even with a disclaimer!)  

 I really must say that I find houndlove's posts on this thread very insightful, and indicative of what really does go on in professional circles.
Many of the posts here are just what I was looking for when I started the thread - a discussion on how professionals deal with the public who expects them to be acting like CM, and are stunned, disappointed, incredulous, name-your-emotion, when they find that not only are you not like CM, but your methods don't look at ALL like what he does.  They question your credibility - after all, doesn't he fix every dog????  So, the idea that people want to discuss this should not surprise anyone.  Along the lines of houndlove's premise, where the heck would we be if people didn't question the notion that illness was caused by "vapors"?  The germ theory would never have been accepted.  Perhaps we would still be sailing only so far, to avoid falling off the edge, or into the craw of a giant sea monster.  Questioning is GOOD, because it keeps us investigating, learning, and doing better by our dogs.  What the heck is wrong with that?  Why in the world would anyone who loves dogs not question theories of motivation and learning, or want to know how their social structure governs their relationship with us?  The problem I see is that we have, for way too long, simply been on one side of the fence or the other about this without taking the time to investigate what others think.  If I can read "Cesar" Way" (even if I don't agree with everything in it), why is it taboo for me to then suggest that his fans read different books, or watch other trainers' DVD's?  That's how you get a perspective.  It's how you form a considered opinion.  Again, anything wrong with that?  If there is, perhaps we should just all give up, go to the moon, and gorge ourselves on green cheese...

In regards to Houndlove’s post: The dog was a pet store dog The dog is a border collie (not good for the inexperienced and not good for just hanging around the house with no training and nothing to do) They say they loved the dog as a puppy but it is not 4.5 yrs, what has transpired between that timeframe? They say they made the dog aggressive because they babied it after and accident. CM told them this. Did he tell them personally? Was it from a show or a book? The dog was hit by a car, which also denotes perhaps there is not much human/dog interaction going on. They say they do not want to invest any MORE money in training or behaviorist fees. This denotes that there has been money spent. Do these trainers or behaviorists bear any blame for the fate of the dog? IMO these people are fools, and fools like the countless others that should not have a dog. From reading between the lines one can assume or speculate that even if these folks had gone to Anne with their problems chance are it would fail. The owner has to put effort into the task, the owner has to want the dog to learn and has to want to teach the dog, I do not care how darn good the trainer is, if the owners sit on their butts and do nothing the dog will fail and more so if it is a breed such as this one was. I know of a couple that bought a husky pup from the pet store. They signed up for classes and went. The husband beat the dog with a shovel because it continued to dig his yard up. When the dog was 10 months old he bit the husband and was PTS. Who failed? The trainers that taught them how to teach their dog, the dog, or the owners? Idiots will be idiots regardless of who teaches them. CM cannot be blamed because idiots used his name.

houndlove

So I do not find any questioning of another professional to be "childish". It's what professionals do. And I would be willing to bet cold hard cash that if someone was doing a Nanny 911 show using fairly controversial child-rearing methods that got hugely popular, there would be similar DVDs available to early childhood professionals to help them deal with the inevitable questions that would arise in their daily lives about why they aren't doing it like The Toddler Whisperer.

 And if it went the other way? Fantastic, because the criticisms I see for rewards-based or clicker training are based on misunderstandings so much of the time, I'd love it if there were some way for people to educate themselves about these other methods completely before rejecting them and having a reason for rejecting them that is based on what they actually are and do as opposed to some cartoon idea of what they are.
 

 

Big thumbs up!!! And that is SO true, I'm so sick of having to explain that if you do positive reinforcement training using treats or toy you DO NOT need to always have the reward handy or your dog will blow you off.

espencer

Point taken but i was not talking about dominance theory, i was talking about just dominance which are two different things, one is a study that has nothing to do with dogs and the other is a behavior that dogs can show, i also dont see on the DVD description anything that shows them talking about the dominance theory so i dont know why you bring the subject

 

Since you like word play, in spite of the distinctions presented, then what do you mean by dominance? Be mindful that whatever you say presents as a theory and, therefore, a dominance theory. And then, how would you support your dominance theory with some kind of reproducable results? That is, we won't all become enthralled with your charming accent and 6-pack abs.

By the way, for others, when we disagree with a dominance theory, even one promoted by a celebrity, even if that celebrity has backed off of mentioning it as much, we are not saying you, whoever you are, are a bad person. You could call Donaldson an acerbic or sarcastic person and you just might be right but I don't set my personal worth by what she or anyone says. I don't worship her and I don't see the +R thing as a cult or religion to defend.

Also, a technical point. If she doesn't mention CM by name, or even his show by it's trademark name and host channel, then what's the beef? If someone here is talking about dominance, which evidently CM is backing away from, and are following their own definition and theory, then the link video of this thread would not be talking about him, would it? They could be talking about Frawley, Koehler, previous editions of Monks of New Skete. If that's the case and they technically aren't mentioning just the one by name, then what's the gripe? And if you think that these questions are a "splitting hairs" case of apologetics, where would I have gotten that and could it have possibly been used before as a debate tactic?

IMO, independent breed does not mean dominant. Powerful breed does not mean dominant. But proper stewardship of any breed requires training. Since that's the case, why not use training that is effective regardless of breed or species? Nor am I against touch for cues or conditioned reinforcers. Why not use a method that does not include models or theories that have proven to be ineffective or inaccurate? I can't always know what another person is thinking. So, now, since no one is referring to the wolf model anymore, if they say dominant, then I need to know how they define it so that I can understand it and either disagree or agree. That's not a challenge or sarcasm. If you are working with me and I ask for 3 reds, you need to know that I mean red wire nuts. If I ask for ladyfingers, you need to know that I mean wire clamps on offset cables for pulling big wire. I have to define the word or concept I am using for you to understand what I am talking about.

 

I am all for challenging certain views, but I have to say this arrow shot was directed at CM......just alone the title gives it away......I was thinking, if those two wanted to speak out against dominance, why haven't they done so years ago when the likes of Frawley and Koehler were big names?

I watched the little video snippet twice.......and what I got from it was that she was stuck on the word "Dominance"....she carried it from wolves to dogs,wild cats and children......jumping all over the place.....if that snippet is the best out of that video, then that thing isn't worth 5 bucks......also, in the beginning there is this little cartooninish drawing of a wolf.....and then it says" Ps: Dogs don't pack"......are we to take that as a serious statement?

I have not seen the DVD under discussion, and thus cannot comment on it. However, the motivation behind it's creation is very clear to me. Since the advent of a certain TV show our dog training club has been having all sorts of problems with people coming into basic obedience class and disrupting the class by arguing that "that's not how CM does it"; we've also had a steady stream of owners come for help with dogs with behavioral problems that appear to have been caused by these owners ignoring the disclaimer on CM's show or reading his books and applying (mis-applying?) the techniques. These techniques may work when used by CM (do we know that? have they ever gone back a year later and proven the "rehabbed" dog was, in the hands of his owners, still "rehabbed"?) , but they sure don't seem to work when used by many other people- in fact, often they seem to backfire and cause more problems. And I personally know of one dog that was euthanised after the owner's attempts to copy CM turned her dog into a vicious fear-biter.

Most good trainers will tell you that you should learn all you can and continue to learn, and listen to each trainer then take away what works for you and leave what doesn't.

It's interesting to look at the bios of the people mentioned in this thread:

Dr. Ian Dunbar
http://www.newworldlibrary.com/client/client_pages/authorbios/bios/dunbar.cfm
Dr. Ian Dunbar is a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, and dog trainer. He has given over 750 full-day seminars and workshops for dog trainers and veterinarians around the world. A columnist, the star of the British television show Dogs With Dunbar, and author, he has written numerous books and hosted a dozen videos about puppy/dog behavior and training. He received his veterinary degree and a Special Honors degree in Physiology & Biochemistry from the Royal Veterinary College (London University) and a doctorate in animal behavior from the University of California in Berkeley. He is the founder of many dog-training organizations, including the Center for Applied Animal Behavior; the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, the largest and most influential worldwide association of professional dog trainers; and Sirius Puppy Training, the leading provider of puppy classes in the San Francisco Bay Area. He lives in Berkeley, CA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan

Interesting that besides not having any training or degrees, Millan was also an illegal alien and is only now getting his citizenship...amazing, one can come to the USA illegally and be rewarded for it.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/cesar.html
Not to mention that Nat'l Geographics says he has '20 years experience' with dogs...going back to when he had dogs in mexico...if that's their criteria for success, then I have about 45 years of experience, since I've always had dogs and worked with them...but I wouldn't consider myself a dog expert, and I'm continually learning.

Some interesting comments from dog professionals:
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

 

Mudpuppy touches on something that is sometimes overlooked by those who appreciate CM: like it or not, CM's show has touched way more people than any other single dog trainer out there.  Reality tv is all the rage.   There are sooooo many people walking around with some version of CM's ideas, except that they aren't very accurate and the people don't have any dog handling skills. 

Part of why dog professionals get so snotty about the subject is that they are coming face to face with these people, again and again.  

For example, the trainer we worked with when things got really bad with Ivan teaches corrections with a prong collar and advocates training without treats.  Even *he* felt the need to address the CM phenomena.  Posted on his website:

Many of you have asked me what I think about "The Dog Whisperer". I have not met the man but I did do some research after receiving so many inquiries as to his methods and techniques. I watched about 15 or so episodes of his television series on National Geographic. The disclaimer at the beginning of each episode admonishing people to "not try this at home", told me a lot before I even saw him in action. It reminded me of the series "Jackass" - I had to laugh. And, then I thought, what I teach folks every day and with every dog is to try it at home, and often!

However, I must say this; Any dog trainer, canine specialist or animal behaviorist who is willing to work with aggressive dogs, or dogs with other serious behavioral concerns, deserves respect. Although I may not agree with his approach, and know from my many years of dealing with these issues that there is a better way, I applaud him for doing whatever he can to help owner's and their dogs who just may be running out of options.

When I came across the article below, it summed up my opinion pretty well so I decided to share it with you.  The links below are two more articles I recommend.

The article he refers to is the New York Times editorial called "Pack of Lies" The article states "Mr. Millan brings his pastiche of animal behaviorism and pop psychology into millions of homes a week. He’s a charming, one-man wrecking ball directed at 40 years of progress in understanding and shaping dog behavior and in developing nonpunitive, reward-based training programs, which have led to seeing each dog as an individual, to understand what motivates it, what frightens it and what its talents and limitations are."

So here you have a trainer who uses force, and doesn't touch clickers. Because of inquiries from clients, he needed to look into CM.  And this trainer, evil user of leash corrections, agrees that CM's show is having a negative effect on dog training and the general public.

 He also links to this article: http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer

 My point is, dog trainers are seeing the impact of CM's show, frequently.  And since their ideas of CM are coming largely through the people showing up on their doorsteps, it makes sense that objections to CM don't always address the exact things he does he or says.  Objections to CM tend to be based on the effect he's having on the American public. I enjoy the show as a form of entertainment, but I absolutely agree its been bad for dogs. 

 

Dog_ma...nice post. Thanks for posting the info, also.

Considering that there are so many people who don't bother to train their dogs to begin with, add in their seeing CM's tactics and trying it at home (even when the show itself says not to - which I find very telling) to the ignorance they already have about training dogs (or belief in using the old methods) will only mean more dogs will end up being turned into shelters and/or euthanized. When the American Human Society says a trainers methods are wrong, people should be sitting up and taking notice of that. Frankly, after reading their letter, I agree with them that his show needs to be pulled. Watching 'it's Me or the Dog' teaches one more about how to use positive methods than anything CM's shows do.

dog trainers are seeing the impact of CM's show, frequently.  And since their ideas of CM are coming largely through the people showing up on their doorsteps, it makes sense that objections to CM don't always address the exact things he does he or says.  Objections to CM tend to be based on the effect he's having on the American public. I enjoy the show as a form of entertainment, but I absolutely agree its been bad for dogs.

Not only are they showing up on our doorsteps, they are sometimes not following our instructions - instead, they go home and abandon the training regimen we have offered, to try something that the oh-so-charismatic dog blusterer has done on TV.  Great.  Now, they still have a problem, maybe even a worse problem than before, but who gets blamed?  Not them, not Cesar.  You guessed it.  Mostly, the hapless trainers who could have done something to help their dogs had they just listened. 

Sometimes, he is good for business, though.  I had one lady come to my center because she had tried to contact Millan already and he had not responded.  This lady lives in Massachusetts and owns a toy dog.  Gimme a break.  Of course, once she came to my center, she did not want to listen to a thing I said - only wanted to know if I could do what MIllan does.  I told her if that's what she wanted, I would be happy to refer her to another trainer.  Wonder how the local Schutzhund guy is dealing with that tiny terror LOL. 

 

spiritdogs

Not only are they showing up on our doorsteps, they are sometimes not following our instructions - instead, they go home and abandon the training regimen we have offered,

 

Yeah, that happens to Millan, too. Maybe you could work WITH Millan and do a segment of DW about that. That would be very helpful, instructive and convivial!