Reaching for the Sledge Hammer to do a Caliper's Job

spiritdogs

No one is saying you should not be balanced, but IMO, you are not able to speak against +R if you do not have personal experience using it, to the exclusion of the other methods. 

spiritdogs

Funny, but when people continue to beat the dead horse (I miss that smiley) about "balanced" they consider that normal, but when we do it about "positive",

But who arbitrarily comes up with this term "balanced"?

If any term used in the labelling of "camps", I think personally this would be one of the most derogatory. It assumes this position of anyone else who chooses not to use a particular quadrant, say R- or P+, as being unbalanced. It promotes this atmosphere of "Well, MY methods are balanced, and because you don't do as I do, your are unbalanced, so mine are superior to yours". Really, I think that is most condescending if you ask me. Just the word itself - balanced, automatically HAS to pre-ordain that others dissimilar to it are "unbalanced".

I think my philosophy is totally and completely balanced. If it wasn't, I wouldn't likely have the success that I do with my dogs.

So where does the line of "balanced" become drawn? To me this term is something that consists only of abstract subjectivity, in which some people are trying to objectify into a concrete philosophy.

mudpuppy

and why do you use leash corrections?  I can't think of any situation with any dog where a leash correction would be your most effective behavioral modification tool.

 

 

Oh, choking him out might have worked too, but a leash correction seemed nicer.

I have never been one to rule by force.  It isn't me.  I have a lot of experience wooing feral and skittish cats, so tuning in and building trust come naturally to me.

Leash corrections, in the context of a loving, consistent, and positive relationship do not terrorize most dogs.  I say most, because dogs differ in their sensitivities just as people do.  I hope I never see the need to administer leash corrections again, as stylistically they are a challenge for me, but I absolutely think they have a place in dog training.  It all depends on the dog, and the context.

Life isn't black and white. Really.  

luvmyswissy

Obviously MP you were using those methods incorrectly if you were yanking and spanking!  And Chuffy is correct, when you say you use to use corrections so you were a yank and spank trainer you make those who do use those methods correctly defensive. 

Thanks for making that distinction, Swissy! Most of us who are tired of being attacked and slandered by anti-Millaners, speak of a handling style that is HANDS ON, that is directed by personal experience and direct relationship, and that uses all four quadrants of OC. We are not speaking of old school, ignorant, misinformed, or abusive methodologies.

Mudpuppy's statement, and many similar others by Houndlove, Spiritdogs, et al, exemplify the fallacy that our responsive, sensitive, "energy" oriented handling style is the same as the likes of WW2 style military dog training protocols. LOL! Cripes, we are, for the most part, a bunch of sensitive, airy fairy types ... that fantasy about us just doesn't add up!

And the fact that some of us, who appreciate the subtleties of social interactions, like leadership and followership energies, are also thin skinned is BY DESIGN! If you are thick skinned, then by default, you cannot feel subtle energies! When I hold my dog by the scruff of her neck, I can FEEL her response to me, I don't need to read, in a textbook, an academic's projection of how she feels; I am there, in that moment, with my thin skin and my amazingly awesome and excellent dog and FEEL it ALL BY MYSELF!

When a newbie comes in asking about neck pokes, I could do a lot more for them (and their dog) by talking with them about subtle energy, presence, reading their dog ... airy fairy stuff, than an anti-Millaner will accomplish by screaming them out of here, uneducated and turned off to seeking a deeper understanding of their own power. It's really that simple ... what's the saying ... "If you only have a hammer, every thing starts to look like a nail"?

(note: all “you”s are “generic you”)

And you know what? That foxy little brown man from Mexico said some stuff in a TV show and book that turned me on to using my own powers of seeing, feeling, and knowing rather than always looking to external "authorities" for direction. If you want to understand the Dog Whisperer phenomenon, that’s it in a nutshell ... people tune in when you turn them on to themselves!

If you want to know what's really new, what's really healthy, what's NOT stuck in ignorance and the past ... try self-reliability and self-responsibility. Try dropping some emotional baggage, thinning your skin a little to feel the world around you; try embracing the totality of yourself, your loved ones, your pets, your neighbors. Try taking on patience as your challenge, rather than “fixing” others! Try walking away from a statement that bugs you a little because sometimes you, we all, should just live and let live.

Ixas_girl

 If you want to understand the Dog Whisperer phenomenon, that’s it in a nutshell ... people tune in when you turn them on to themselves!

 

Having grown up in the shadow of Hollywood (behind the Orange curtain)  I'm not so sure!

Milan's show is reality tv.  It is not documentary or educational.  

Sorry to be cynical, but it doesn't pay to downplay the power of the Hollywood marketing machine. 

mudpuppy

and why do you use leash corrections?  I can't think of any situation with any dog where a leash correction would be your most effective behavioral modification tool.

A gentle snap of the leash to bring her focus back onto me is imo better then letting her focus on something that could get her or someone/thing else hurt such as another dog that she thinks she needs to beat up. It gets her attention when nothing else will and lets me use the behavior modification steps that her behaviorist taught me to use with her.

So you're using the leash as a cue to look at you- it's not a "correction" in this context.  And what are you going to do when she isn't on leash and she focuses on something? You'd be far better off spending the time to train a really good "head whip" in response to a verbal cue. Works on and off leash.

"Leash corrections, in the context of a loving, consistent, and positive relationship do not terrorize most dogs. "

I agree. Why do people assume that if you don't like a technique it's because it's "cruel"?  I don't like leash corrections because I think they are one of the least effective training methods available. Mostly because they DON'T terrorize dogs. Punishments are really only effective if they aversive enough to stop the behavior permanently after one or two applications. Leash corrections generally fall into the "nag nag nag" category of really ineffective behavioral modification methods. Example: if you try to train a dog to heel with leash corrections, you will administer literally hundreds of "nags" before the dog gets it, AND you'll have great difficulty in transfering the behavior to off-leash fluency.

I don't like the "finger pokes" because I think it's dangerous to the person doing the poking. You go around poking distracted and aroused dogs, sooner or later one of those dogs is going to whip around and bite you before he realizes it's you. It's one of those techniques that works some of the time with some dogs, but should not be generally suggested because when it doesn't work it's dangerous.

and I think we need to clarify what we mean by "yank n spank" trainer-- it's not a cruel, abusive koehler-style trainer, it's simply a trainer who trains PRIMARILY by corrections. Things like leash-pops and NO and body blocks and threatening body language, not beatings and alpha-rolls and hanging. Someone who, if you want to use your own terminology, is "unbalanced" towards using lots of +P and not much from the other quadrants.

mudpuppy

Leash corrections generally fall into the "nag nag nag" category of really ineffective behavioral modification methods.

 

This is a great example of where "we" (the generic we) have a hard time understanding each other. I agree, simply tugging on a dog's leash is just nagging. But, using the leash as an extension of your own energy, as a communication tool, is so much more. And it's something you (generic you) won't respect or recognize in if you're determined to understand all human-dog interactions in terms of the stimulus-response paradigm. The energy, or intention, that accompanies the leash correction IS THE MESSAGE, not the leash correction itself! There is no place in the quadrants of R+, R-, P+ and P- to account for this intention, or energy! That's why "we" talk about balance. Operant Conditioning is a great tool, but there are other forces at work in the real world ... like personal power.

In order to use the leash as an extension of your energy, as a powerful communication tool, you must be in touch with your own power! Operant Conditioning negates individual power and personality, it provides a level and clinical field (as it should, it's a tool of scientific analysis producing measurable results, that's what it was designed to do!). So, If we want to understand "how" to handle a leash, Operant Conditioning cannot help us. This is where we get to practice self-awareness, like: never tug on the leash in anger or frustration, be calm and confident (aka assertive, which is miles away from "aggressive";), tug with a clear purpose not insecurity or confusion.

My leash tug is dramatically different than my Fiance's ... I have practiced being present, energetically, in my handling. When I tug the leash, Ixa pays attention, when Fiance tugs, she just tugs back or ignores him. Same dog, same leash,  but "same tug"? ... the difference is the energy! Here it is, the sledgehammer vs the caliper ... these subtle energies are measured with calipers, not in pounds per inch (force)!

mudpuppy

So you're using the leash as a cue to look at you- it's not a "correction" in this context

Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, here we go round the mulberry bush on a cold and frosty morning...

Now i get what Kim was saying about having to define certain terms whenever you use them.  Lilybelle did not suggest she used leash pops as a punishment.  Just as an "Oi!  Attention on me please "  if I understand correctly.  Plus, while a leash correction is no good off leash (obviously) if you're talking about a reactive dog who is only tense and distracted from you BECAUSE of the leash and is more relaxed and responsive off leash.... otherwise a verbal cue would be better.

And again, people here who use words like "pack", "alpha", "leadership", "dominance" ....  and see these as very relevant in dog training - I can think of several of them who have stated they still used the most positive method they can for any dog/situation.  I think dogs need a leader like children need a parent.  Just because I plan on being a PARENT to my son, rather than a buddy, does NOT mean I am going to use the most correction based method of teaching him.  Quite the opposite in fact.  I don't understand where you are drawing this connection?

Handle every situation like a dog.
If you can't Eat it or Chew it.
Widdle on it and Walk Away. 

Hehee!   Chuffy, I just noticed your sig quote ... I love it! Priceless! And really funny to see in this thread topic! LOL!

I was very VERY succesful in training my dog to have a 100% reliable come, he is a pleasure walking on leash and off and he knows stay is stay amoungst many other very important commands.  I have said this before and I will say it again for I am very, very proud of my dog and my relationship and what a teriffic dog he is.  My firends all agree that I could walk down the mall and River would walk behind me without ever loosing sighe or going a stray and I beleive they are right.  I can take my dog anywhere off lead and I mean anywhere if I say stay, while I am walking he stays by my side.  If it is place he can investigate I allow him to do his thing, but when I say "come" he come licky split with a smile on his face.  This was accomplish with leash corrections and positive training in combination with many months and many hours of training and consistancy.  Could you achieve this positive only, sure you could.  .  It's all about what you use in your tool box and how you use it and what works for you.  If you teach him verbal commands and movements with the leash corrections you don't need a leash after awhile.  Its no different than if I said to you, what will you do if you don't have a hotdog in your back pocket? 

Chuffy

Here we go round the mulberry bush,

 

Yeah... I believe another productive thread has been flushed down the loo and spun way off topic. I have learned what I hoped to learn from this thread. It was a great lesson for me. Thanks to all.

I would have no objections to the thread being closed to maintain its original purpose. These other discussions can join up with any of a multitude of threads sniper threads already in progress. Just FYI.

Ixas_girl

mudpuppy

Leash corrections generally fall into the "nag nag nag" category of really ineffective behavioral modification methods.

 

This is a great example of where "we" (the generic we) have a hard time understanding each other. I agree, simply tugging on a dog's leash is just nagging. But, using the leash as an extension of your own energy, as a communication tool, is so much more. And it's something you (generic you) won't respect or recognize in if you're determined to understand all human-dog interactions in terms of the stimulus-response paradigm. The energy, or intention, that accompanies the leash correction IS THE MESSAGE, not the leash correction itself! There is no place in the quadrants of R+, R-, P+ and P- to account for this intention, or energy! That's why "we" talk about balance. Operant Conditioning is a great tool, but there are other forces at work in the real world ... like personal power.

In order to use the leash as an extension of your energy, as a powerful communication tool, you must be in touch with your own power! Operant Conditioning negates individual power and personality, it provides a level and clinical field (as it should, it's a tool of scientific analysis producing measurable results, that's what it was designed to do!). So, If we want to understand "how" to handle a leash, Operant Conditioning cannot help us. This is where we get to practice self-awareness, like: never tug on the leash in anger or frustration, be calm and confident (aka assertive, which is miles away from "aggressive";), tug with a clear purpose not insecurity or confusion.

My leash tug is dramatically different than my Fiance's ... I have practiced being present, energetically, in my handling. When I tug the leash, Ixa pays attention, when Fiance tugs, she just tugs back or ignores him. Same dog, same leash,  but "same tug"? ... the difference is the energy! Here it is, the sledgehammer vs the caliper ... these subtle energies are measured with calipers, not in pounds per inch (force)!

What I don't get is how you have managed to hang out here for so long and never learned how to have a dog pay attention to you without having to even touch the leash...  I simply don't understand the concept that you would need to use the leash to get your dog's attention or have her look at you.  Not only that, but what exactly are you telling her to do when you tug?  My guess is that you are focused on telling her what NOT to do.  You may not be a yank & cranker, or whatever terminology you would like to use, but certainly your actions, if you are tugging, impede the dog from offering ANY behavior at that moment (unless, as your fiance does, you engage her oppositional reflex).  Why on earth would you not simply teach her some commands that she can do instead of what you do not want her to do?  If she is sitting, she isn't jumping up.  If she is looking at your face, she isn't barking at an approaching dog.  So simple it's mind boggling how many people still just want to correct the dog THEN tell it what to do.  Why not just cut to the chase?

 

mudpuppy

and I think we need to clarify what we mean by "yank n spank" trainer-- it's not a cruel, abusive koehler-style trainer, it's simply a trainer who trains PRIMARILY by corrections. Things like leash-pops and NO and body blocks and threatening body language, not beatings and alpha-rolls and hanging. Someone who, if you want to use your own terminology, is "unbalanced" towards using lots of +P and not much from the other quadrants.

 

So telling my dog NO and using leash correction makes me unbalance?  That's not fair.  You need to come to my house and meet my dogs and me for that matter - you would be pleasantly surprised.

I think the words YANK and SPANK speak for themselves.  And cruel comes to my mind.  Yanking and spanking are derogatory words have no place being used here - no matter how you want to put a spin on them.

For me I used both and once I got his bad behaviors under control and taught him NOT to do things, teaching what to do was easy enough.  Before that, no positive would have worked soley or by its self - I needed all four quads.  Maybe some of you think you could have taught my dog without it, and maybe you could have.  But I needed more..   used more.. it it worked remarkably well.