Truley
Carla, you did good, you have proven that some minds are closed, some are open. Some are using that hammer to try and point out their way is best while others are poor.
Are you really sure of that though?
I can't speak for Spiritdogs, however I can see what she is getting at. Now, perhaps her mind IS closed (although I don't think it is), and if it is I'm sure she'll tell me. ;-) However, I think that it is not, and what I get from this is that just because she either a) doesn't use it herself, or b) tries to recommend alternatives, this doesn't mean she's closeminded. I'm sure she realizes that leash pops (they are called "tugs" now? These words change terms faster than I can keep up with them) are effective, to some degree. And I'm sure she also realizes that not all dogs have severe fallout from them. But does that negate her from trying to offer additional advice?
Perhaps it came across as confrontational, but I found great purpose in her post. If we can get over perhaps the way in which it was worded, the point appeared to me to be that we as dog lovers are always striving to find new ways to better communicate with our dogs. Yes, leash pops work. If they didn't, nobody would be using them. Isn't the the point of being here? To learn, to grow, by sharing with others? Or just to argue? I sometimes wonder, really. At any given time we can only do what we know. But sometimes, eventually we find something a little bit more effective, or a little gentler, or a little more suited to the dog rather than the person, and we go with that. That's how we grow. I've seen Ron (sorry to use you as an example) grow a heck of a lot since I've been a member, and he's been around a lot longer than I have! He is an avid learner, soaking up everything he can, finding what works for him, and discarding other things that don't, or at least setting them aside until he has a need for them. What I "think" Spiritdogs is getting at, is what if you pushed yourself just a little bit? Open up your mind and try, instead of correcting what you don't want, start out with the premise that you only reward what you DO want? And see what the effect turns out to be? Start with no leash. That way you can't correct with a leash, you are forced to try other ways to get your dog to stay faithfully beside you. See what comes of it, how you feel while doing it. I really feel that you can't truly 'understand' some of these things unless you actually try them. It makes it hard, though, because I can understand why people don't wish to try things that can harm a dog, but I don't understand why there is such resistance to try, even if just for a tiny bit, something that causes no harm to the dog whatsoever, and provides no "risk" of harm. Don't knock it till ya try it, as the old saying goes. Is it even a consideration that perhaps rewarding what you want just "might" be more effective in the long run? Or is there closemindedness going on after all? I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm genuinely curious. "What if" you just gave it a try? Because there is no risk, as it's not punishment, what is there to lose?
In terms of the "how to" of teaching walking on a leash - there is a fundamental difference, though, in the way a dog learns, between being punished (no, punished doesn't mean cruel or smack n' flack or whatever you call it...it's simply punishment - inhibiting behaviours) for certain behaviours, and learning what you want from the beginning. Unless you've tried it you'll never see the difference, but those of us who have done it know how vast that difference is. And if you don't want to do it that way, that's your choice, but you will never understand the difference if you don't see it for yourself. When a dog is punished for behaviour a certain way, it often ends up offering less behaviours in general. That is simply one of the known fallouts of punishment. They usually become more apt to wait to be told what to do, rather than offer behaviours to see if it's what you want. And again, there's nothing really wrong with a dog that waits to be told what to do, dogs that are true "thinkers" can be a pain to live with if that's not what you want. But the point is there is a difference, and I think that's where people are not understanding where some others are coming from. By the time you punish out the things you don't want, inevitably you are just left with the behaviour you desired, so there is very little left to reinforce! Whereas a dog that has been reinforced continuously for what you do want, is engaged in the learning, and isn't worried about trying something new. That is the difference. Again, having a dog that thinks for itself is not a dog for everybody, and some people prefer dogs that don't try new behaviours a whole lot - there is a place for that for some people - but in the end there is no debating that differences can be seen.
Now I'm not even sure where I'm going with this....I came in here for a purpose and in all that got sidetracked...lol.
Oh, I think I remember.....just because somebody challenges you, does not mean that they feel their method is "better" or that yours is "poor". And I don't think that anybody is proving that "any" minds are opened or closed. Now, for some people it might. Personally, yes, I do feel that rewarding what you want is more effective than punishing what you don't want. And I feel that way based upon my experiences over time. I have learned that I don't need to apply punishments to get to an end goal. I also realize, though, that other people don't know that, as they either haven't experienced it, or haven't been interested in experiencing it. Just because people challenge something that is said, doesn't at all mean they are "closeminded". All it means is that perhaps they have additional information that might help people out. If there were no disputes, this would be a heck of a boring place.
If there was no discussion, if everybody agreed with everybody else, I know I'd have been gone a long time ago. Because I'm not here to have everybody agree with me. I am here to discuss what I think, why I think that, defend my position and back it up, and perhaps yes, even to alter my position if I learn something that appears to fit into my lifestyle. If I wanted everybody to simply agree with me I'd join the clicker lists - and I have. But you know, I've had a much more appreciable time being able to discuss WHY what I do works, rather than talk to other people who already know it works, if you know what I mean. Some people might not, but I LIKE having my ideas challenged, because it makes me remain true to myself, it prevents living in that "cloudy bubble world" where all is happy and glory and whatnot, what you get when everybody already agrees with what you say.
I guess the point is, people have to toughen up a little bit, and get over the fact that not everybody agrees with them. If you come here, you SHOULD expect somebody to question what you do, or to offer something a bit different to see what you think. And you should be very happy to back up what you do, explain why what you're doing is most effective, and perhaps, just maybe, find something that is a little more effective than what you are currently doing. I know I've changed some things that I've done since I started here, not drastic things but things that have made life easier for me, and for my dogs. So we are all susceptible to learning something, if we just open our minds. And that means everybody. Don't immediately put up that wall when somebody challenges it. Instead, don your hat, smile, and be ready for a discussion.
I too think this thread is too far gone, but I certainly enjoyed it while it lasted, and have gleaned some nice information from it!