Reaching for the Sledge Hammer to do a Caliper's Job

 The sledgehammer that is in my toolbox is never used on my dogs, but I confess I do whip it out on occasion when responding to posts. I will try and work on that.

I'm standing beside you on this one for sure!  I use different approaches to different situations. I deal with everything from the very calm, easy to train dog, to the hard core police/working dog.  These dogs take different training approaches alot of times.  I have to vary my training methods to adapt to each situation I am dealing with.  I use everything from clicker training/shaping to alpha rolling.  Hate me if you will, but  those are the facts.  Most people on these forums have never had any contact with a hard core dog.  And I don't mean just an aggressive dog, some of these import working dogs are all business.  They require a different approach to some of their training.  Thank you for standing up and saying there is more than one approach, and if people use different methods it doesn't make them a bad person/trainer.

Dawn

Carla, I love your post......someone told me I am not that different than the "+ R" folks.......I use plenty of positive re-enforcement, just no clicker........but, you gotta agree.......they snagged a better title "+R".....lol....

firedogk9

I'm standing beside you on this one for sure!  I use different approaches to different situations. I deal with everything from the very calm, easy to train dog, to the hard core police/working dog.  These dogs take different training approaches alot of times.  I have to vary my training methods to adapt to each situation I am dealing with.  I use everything from clicker training/shaping to alpha rolling.  Hate me if you will, but  those are the facts.  Most people on these forums have never had any contact with a hard core dog.  And I don't mean just an aggressive dog, some of these import working dogs are all business.  They require a different approach to some of their training.  Thank you for standing up and saying there is more than one approach, and if people use different methods it doesn't make them a bad person/trainer.

Dawn

 I also believe that drive and in some cases breed has a lot to do with methods used. Not every dog responds to hotdogs. I have one that if he is fixated on something he would ignore steaks, hotdogs, liver. He only responds to physical touch to snap him out of his fixation. I get rolled a lot for "poking" and some just do not understand or agree with it regardless of how I try and explain how and why. It is not a beating, it does not hurt him, and he sure is not afraid of it. Well anyway I am excited to have you join us. 

  On the personal side have you had any experience with Dogo's?  I could use advice on how to handle Hektor in certain situations and feedback on if what I am doing is right. If so I would love to be able to send you a PM and see what you think.

Carla, I don't disagree with you, except that I think the reason that people in the so called "us" group are so irritated with the Millan phenomenon, is that the general public does NOT always reach for +R first, and a lot of that has to do with what they see on TV.  The disclaimer that CM posts on the show doesn't seem to be working from what I've seen, and I've had people not want to train their dogs with me (it's not personal, they don't want any other positive trainer either) when I answer their question "Do you train like Cesar?" or "Do you like Cesar Millan?" with a "No".  So, how does all that help dogs?  Sure, they want to train, but with whom?  I don't feel right sending a soft dog, destined to be a family pet, down the highway to the CM-style guy in my neighborhood who I would not trust to train my own dogs.

If you had posted this thought with no reference to his holiness, I'd pretty much be on the same page as you, despite the fact that I probably don't resort to any kind of +P as quickly as some folks would, in fact I rarely find it necessary, even with reactive or hard dogs.  They have to be pretty thick before I can't find something  to use as a reinforcer.  I do not disagree with the general premise that one should have a complete toolbox, only that a good trainer will go to almost any length to avoid the use of coercion.  It is never the first option IMO.

Thank you for answering, spiritdogs.

spiritdogs

I've had people not want to train their dogs with me ... when I answer their question "Do you train like Cesar?" or "Do you like Cesar Millan?" with a "No".  So, how does all that help dogs? 

It helps dogs by people being free to choose the style that they want their dogs trained in. Some people are seeking a professional (as CM encourages them to do) and they want someone who uses Cesar's way. I know you don't approve of his way and that's really okay, but a lot of people do. Why shouldn't they choose the methods with which their dogs are trained?

Why shouldn't people ask if you do things a certain way and make the choice to say "nah... I'm want this done a different way"?  

spiritdogs

I don't feel right sending a soft dog, destined to be a family pet, down the highway to the CM-style guy in my neighborhood who I would not trust to train my own dogs.

Then don't recommend him. But you can't control what people do. 

spiritdogs

I do not disagree with the general premise that one should have a complete toolbox, only that a good trainer will go to almost any length to avoid the use of coercion.  It is never the first option IMO.

I understand. And I think that's really great. And the fact that you stand so strong by your conviction is commendable. I know it must be frustrating for you. And I have learned a lot from you. If you could drop the animosity, you might be surprised at how many people pick up hints and tips and tricks from you that you never hear about. I'm buying a book you recommended to someone else.

I'm not asking you to love Cesar. But I honestly think your ... can I say hatred? of him is causing more people to turn away from you and your methods just because other people are as stubborn as you are. :) Me included.

FourIsCompany

Why shouldn't they choose the methods with which their dogs are trained?

  Bravo, i'm sure that there are people that they still choose to old "treat" method, if not Anne would be jobless, the difference is that CM made them realize there are other ways also, so now people actually are able to choose between more options than before, just like how Coca Cola felt when Pepsi came out, well i dont think any of those two have a lack of customers

I would like to express my frustration that I often feel like I'm being pushed into the "us" camp by virtue of the fact that I'm a gentle person at heart and am not comfortable with some of the things CM teaches. I am not somehow diametrically opposed to all uses of punishment and force just because I don't like all things Cesar. I think this "us" and "them" thing goes both ways and is just not really accurate for anyone (except maybe spencer ). I feel like a lot of what I say gets ignored by the so-called "them" folks because they seem to think I think they're barbarians that beat their dogs. I have said repeatedly how I feel about the use of force and punishment and if people haven't figured out that I'm just interested in encouraging people to listen to their animals and choose force-free where they can, then I may as well forget the whole thing and spend time in some other part of the forum. I sometimes feel a little beset about this whole CM deal and I think I get dragged into it because somehow my philosophy automatically sets me up in opposition to CM and all those who like him. That's hardly fair.

So let me just say this: I don't care about CM. I don't care who likes him and why. I don't care if they use his methods or not. I just want people to listen to their dogs and I want people to experience the best relationship with their animals that is possible. When I open my mouth about force and punishment and training methods in general, I'm just sharing what I've learnt. If I say I have issues with things CM does, it's because it doesn't gel with my philosophy and/or I've tried it and found it lacking somehow.

I don't think the "us" and "them" thing even exists on this forum.

And I think some of our problems here are because some people automatically reach for the positive and minimal force methods and cling to them until they're sunk whereas others are looking around at other options right from the start and are ready to abandon ship. I propose that this difference is nothing more personal than personality and neither is superior. Everyone is different. Please, can people just deal with it.
 

I avoided the respect and leadership thread, but find myself drawn to this one.

12 years ago I took my girl Babe to a well known, top of the line facility for standard OB, why? Because this facility was the training facility for police dogs, they had a wonderful reputation, was close to the house and I felt the need to be around people who understood my breed choice. She was the youngest pup in the class, bull headed and strong. They did not use +R and -P. In fact the only reward was praise, not one treat. It was with their recommendation, a strong one too, that I began using a prong collar on her. Leash pops were customary, strong control and corrections the same. She turned out just fine, and to my knowledge never looked at me or anyone else in the family with fear.

Now I have Kord, I took Kord to the local HS for classes, no prongs, plenty of treats, no +P in any way shape or form. Everything is NILIF. He is turning out just fine, and he knows no fear. And since being neutered he has calmed down even more. Would I hestitate to use a strong correction? No, but it is not my first choice for training.

I guess what I am trying to say is there really is no right or wrong way, the way you choose has to be something your comfortable with. Could I have chosen a different way to train Babe? Sure, just like I could have done the same training techniques with Kord. I could have laughed at the suggestion of only doing +R and no +P, but I decided to give it a whirl. Both methods achieved the same results. One is NOT better than the other. It's what is perceived as better, by people who do not live in your home, or live with your dog.

I am sure I am thought of as evil because I continue to use a prong collar. Oh, and I have been known to poke Kord a time or two to get his attention, so now I am a dog abuser? I think not, just as I do not perceive a parent who slaps a child's hand or delivers a much need potch on the behind a child abuser.

The TBH(The big hammer) is only used in this house to change the attitude of machinery and non animated objects, it's in my husbands tool box, not mine.

corvus and Truley, I LOVE your responses! Thank you! I want to be as open as you both seem to be. Whatever works for the dog and owner is good. I still get a bit too defensive of CM for my own comfort.  

Truley

In fact the only reward was praise, not one treat.

Praise is +R. A treat isn't necessary for +R. +R is positive reinforcement. It can be in the form of praise, a treat, a pet, a massage or anything positive that the dog likes. Vocal, physical or a treat.

Truley

there really is no right or wrong way, the way you choose has to be something your comfortable with.

I think this is what I'm saying, too.  My problem is that I get too caught up in trying to get everyone to agree with me on that! LOL Because not everyone agrees with that. That's where my frustration lies. And I know that's my failing. I would really like to be okay with the idea that many people think there IS a right and wrong and stop arguing about it... I realize that trying to convince people to come to a common ground (and be accepting of all methods discussed here) is just as bad as trying to convince them to go all +R or go Cesar's way.

That's my challenge. To stand behind my methods as "right for me" while others may disagree.

corvus

I'm just interested in encouraging people to listen to their animals and choose force-free where they can

Guess what? we actually do exactly that, the use of force is rarely applied and when is applied is very mild

The biggest amount of force that i have ever used against a dog (and i swear i'm not lying) was to take a golden retriever off the couch (and the dog didnt even fight back) from there (on a lower level of force) was to do a couple leash corrections to avoid having my friend's dogs focusing too much on another dog that would cause a fight (which was never more than a couple ones during the entire walk), i even think that "making a tree" and making sure the dog does not walk in front of me was also some of the times when i used the biggest amount of "force"  (and i dont even do leash corrections in those cases)

With the most aggressive dog i've ever been (which was not mine and had bitten the last 3 people he was alone with) i didnt even had to touch him at all 

CM works with extreme cases and some of those dogs never had any discipline whatsoever but because people see CM doing what he does in those episodes (again with extreme cases) they think he does that with every dog he encounters and with his own dogs and thats not true, with shy dogs he does not uses force at all, with hyper dogs he just exercise them, etc

FourIsCompany

Praise is +R.

Yes, my point was that they had no issue with using or teaching proper +P should the situation warrant the use.

Why do you need everyone to agree with you? IMO, anyone who refuses to believe that there are different paths to achieve the same goals is unwilling to change or compromise. Unwillingness to listen to another's views or acceptance of life choices is what starts wars. I am willing to listen respectfully to other options and suggestions, I will even try with proper training or supervision to go with them if they suit me, but if they do not work for me, let it go, leave me be, badgering me about it will only make you more frustrated because in the end I am going to do what I think is best for my situation.

Now I have no opinion on CM, and I am old enough to remember Barbara Woodhouse. Each of them have one thing in common. They became celebrates. People only see the "quick" fix or technique, they do not see the consistency or constant receptiveness that goes into some of the methods, they see the end result and think, great that works for me, thats what I want. And there is where the problem lies.

Truley

People only see the "quick" fix or technique

CM techniques are far from being quick and he has said that himself, now you can see changes right away but that does not mean the dog is "fixed" and CM also repeats that over and over

I dont think Carla (4IC) wants everyone to agree that her techniques are the best, she is just trying to explain that what she does is not wrong and wants every body to see that, i'm pretty sure she knows there are different patch to get to the same goal, some people here just think that the technique she chooses will not

Truley

let it go, leave me be, badgering me about it will only make you more frustrated because in the end I am going to do what I think is best for my situation.

Can we use this quote as the slogan of this forum?  

Truley

Why do you need everyone to agree with you? IMO, anyone who refuses to believe that there are different paths to achieve the same goals is unwilling to change or compromise.

Yeah, I know... You're right. To be fair, I don't NEED everyone to agree with me... And I do admit it's my failing... I said that I get too caught up in trying to get everyone to agree that there really is no right or wrong way, I guess so we don't fight.  I want everyone to get along and not argue and not be defensive (yes, even me) and not put down each others' methods and skip through the flowers singing  "tra-la-la" 

I guess...  LOL

Granted, the number of people out there who do this is probably less than zero. I have never come across anyone who hits their dog or hurts their dog and uses Cesar's show as justification. Is that the problem? Is that what people are doing? I'd really like to know what (specifically) people are doing in the name of Cesar that's harming their dogs.

And what can be done about this problem? Should we do something about it? Is it any of my business that someone sees on TV that bacon is good for babies (for example) and feeds their own child tons of bacon? Is that my business? Do I have an obligation to tell people how to run their own lives? That's my problem with thinking we have a right to step out and do something about people's choices.

Does that make sense?