Reaching for the Sledge Hammer to do a Caliper's Job

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    there really is no right or wrong way, the way you choose has to be something your comfortable with

    A bigger priority is that the dog is also OK with it.  That deserves more focus IMO.  The "wrong way" is the way that discourages a dog from learning and/or harms the dog or his relationship with his owner.  I think popping a prong or a GL is the wrong way.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Carla, I pretty much agree with everything in the original post.  What is hard for me personally is that I'm the type of person that likes to get really nit-picky, gather a lot of objective evidence, and make up my darn mind one way or the other.  Note, that does not mean I'm stern and closed-minded, it just means that I can't stand being wishy-washy (myself, don't care if others are).  There are a lot of training techniques that I won't ever use because I don't need to (lucky me).  I don't include them in my toolbox b/c I don't ever want to work with dogs that require that type of training tool.  I'm not confident enough with it.  I try to post from the perspective of tools and techniques that I have used and do use, even though there are a wider range that I will agree are acceptable in certain situations.  It's sort of like me agreeing that yes, if someone came into my house and tried to rape me or kill me, I'd probably grab for a kitchen knife and start stabbing.  However, just because I can say that in some situations I feel it's an acceptable technique, doesn't mean that I consider that part of my toolbox, so to speak.  I won't say I'm a violent, aggressive person just because I have to be when I need to be.  (note, I'm NOT making any sort of correlation between stabbing someone and using certain training techniques, just trying to find an example of something that I usually do NOT do but in one situation might actually do). I try to define who I am (in all aspects of life) by what I DO do, not by what I MIGHT do if I had to.  Make sense?  That's where I'm coming from.  I'd rather get into a heated debate where I'm rigidly defending what I believe, than stretching myself so far just for the sake of being all-accepting.  That's just who I am.  I don't care what tools other people are using as long as they've done their research and have the dog's best interests (not their own) at heart.  My open-mindedness extends as far as being accepting of what other people do in their own situations, but not so far that I'm going to embrace their techniques with open arms and start applying them myself.  If that makes me a jerk, so be it, but I'm just being totally honest. 

    I don't defend ANY tool/technique/method I have not seen used (in front of my own eyes, not on TV) with success or recommended to me by the professionals I trust.  That puts me in a fairly neutral position as far as CM specifically.  I have not seen a professional trainer or behaviorist use his methods, period, so I have no opinion on them or any evidence as to whether or not they are successful.  For some people, that means they are "bad" b/c other methods work so why try his?  Well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and though it pains me to do so, stretch myself far enough to say that there's probably more than one method that works in any given situation.  But again, I haven't seen his methods at work, so I'm not entirely convinced of when and how they are appropriate, nor do I have any level of experience that would make me confident enough to try or recommend them.  Right now, they are not part of my toolbox and I'm not willing to extend myself that far, for reasons above and because I choose not to work with dogs that would require that level of physical correction.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje, I really appreciate your post. It makes a lot of things clear for me. A lot of your points about yourself are also true for me. I can relate to the stabbing analogy (I love analogies).

    Liesje
    I'd rather get into a heated debate where I'm rigidly defending what I believe, than stretching myself so far just for the sake of being all-accepting.

    This is so clear and I find myself agreeing. Perhaps being all-accepting isn't all it's cracked up to be. Stick out tongue Because we all have our line where we say, "I can't accept that." It's just that some of my actions fall outside other people's line and I want to be more gracious about that and not fight them to move their line to include me and my actions.

    It's a goal.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy
    A bigger priority is that the dog is also OK with it. The "wrong way" is the way that discourages a dog from learning and/or harms the dog or his relationship with his owner.

     

    Well every body here can tell you that their dogs are ok with the techniques they use and that their techniques dont discourage, harm their dogs or their relationship with them, i know mine doesnt

    So if i tell you that, would you believe me? because its true, the people out there that really harm their dogs and their relationship with them are not subscribed to this forum 

    • Gold Top Dog
    Chuffy
     FourIsCompany:
    there really is no right or wrong way, the way you choose has to be something your comfortable with.

     

    A bigger priority is that the dog is also OK with it.  That deserves more focus IMO.  The "wrong way" is the way that discourages a dog from learning and/or harms the dog or his relationship with his owner.  I think popping a prong or a GL is the wrong way.

    I actually said that, and if you want the honest truth, what you see as a "pop" someone else could see as a "tug". Do not get me wrong, I do not advocate animal abuse. And I think Espencer has it right, the people on this board would be the last I would suspect of harming their dogs or other animals. Getting everyone to conform to one way over the other is not going to happen. Accepting it is this hardest step.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Personally I don't even understand the "us" vs. "them" camps. What frustrates me is that people are arbitrarily put into camps. I have been put into camps that I don't even consider being a part of. I'm not IN a camp. Either that or I'm in my own camp. You decide. ;-)

    My point is, the way I live my life with dogs is not based around any "person", or "camp". It's based upon my relations with dogs and how I can get the best out of my interactions with them to make life easier. It's not even about "____ is better than/inferior to ______". All decisions I make are based by ME, alone. Not by what somebody tells me I should or shouldn't think like. No matter what 'camp' they are supposed to be "in".

    I do have strong beliefs on certain things. I DO think prongs, slip collars, and electricity are wrong. Plain and simple. No amount of "discussion" is going to make me feel otherwise, because I don't believe in the use of pain and/or fear in teaching or management. I also don't really like head halters that much, which goes against the "camp" I've been put into. I don't say that the people who are using them are "bad people". Not at all. Do I think they could make better decisions? Of course. But that's not my business and for the most part, unless it's discussed openly I don't harass everyone who uses those tools about my beliefs. Because I know that's not right. I would just never use them because they go against my personal values.

    What frustrates ME is that because I feel this way, I am put "into" a particular camp, where people "assume" that I'm somehow egotistical or "positivist" or what have you, simply because of the values that I have. They think that because I don't use certain tools I'm "unbalanced" or "closeminded", when to the contrary, I'm likely one of the most open-minded people you'll meet when it comes to everything dog. My mind was very open to those tools. Just because I don't like them, that doesn't make me "closed" to their use. I know how they work. I know how to properly use them if somebody would have asked.  I know they can be effective. I also know they can be ineffective. But I still choose not to use them. I think that I should have the right to not have that used against me, the same way people have the right not to have me harass them for using them.

    I have also found that using a clicker is the best, most efficient, way for me to teach most overt behaviours. No, I don't use the clicker for everything. No, I don't use treats for everything. And my dogs are as reliable as I expect them to be, and to the extent that I have worked with them. There is a lot of learning that goes on without any treats OR a clicker. But there is a lot of work that does too. I've seen just as many anti-clicker people and people who try to jab at those who use clickers. I don't care if you use a clicker or not. But it's how I live my life with dogs, and it will be a part of how I give advice to other people. If I didn't promote what it is I personally believe in I'd be a hypocrite. Just because people try to help others in certain ways doesn't mean they are 'closeminded', it means they are teaching based upon what they know best.

    When I run into a problem, I sit back and look at the situation. I look at the behaviour I want. I look at the behaviour I have now. I look at the antecedents that cause the behaviour. I look at how the behaviour is changing/or has changed in the past. And then above all I look at the dog's emotional and arousal state. My immediate goal in life is to reduce stress and anxiety in my animal family. And for me personally, that does not involve the use of force, and for the most part it does not involve using P+. I don't do this because I feel "better" than anybody else. I do this because through experience I have found dogs respond best through these ways. I do this because my animals seem to respond better. I do this because in the end this is what makes ME feel good, and comfortable, and stress-free.

    What frustrates me is, as indicated in the original post, that people assume they know what other people are thinking. Just because you watch CM doesn't mean I think anything about you whatsoever. Just because you even like him doesn't mean I think anything about you whatsoever. It doesn't mean that I think you're all about the hammer, or that you immediately jump to using "heavy" methods. That's the problem there. I'd be surprised if anybody DID make those assumptions. I know that I don't. I try not to make assumptions about anyone or anything, especially not based upon the fact that they watch a certain TV program. If somebody came to my house and saw my collection of literature I'd be scared to think of what "camp" I was in - I have reads from Donaldson, to Kilcommons, to Fennell, to Koehler, to Pryor, to some abstract books like "The Tao of Puppies", all one on shelf. I read it all, truly. And that is how I base my philosophy.

    As many know I don't give in much at all to "dominance", "leadership", "alpha", etc, in terms of humans relating with dogs. However, because I know that I have a lot of different views, I still study the ideology of people who use these terms routinely, and who believe that hierarchies exist between species, so that I can better understand where they are coming from when they are talking about it. I study these things moreso BECAUSE of that, so that I CAN better understand others, even if they are doing things that I don't believe in or think even necessarily exist. People have accused me of being closeminded, "out there", and other various things because I have a philosophy that differs from just about all of the mainstream culture. In order to live the way I do with my dogs, and talk about the things that I do, I HAVE to know about other views besides mine, it's basically a necessity in order to be able to talk with others at all. I don't care if people use those terms or believe in the status and hierarchy stuff, I really don't. If it enhances their life somehow with dogs, and the dogs are living a better quality of life because of it, that's what matters. It's where the dogs are living LESS quality in life, and are subjected to various things in the "name" of dominance or rank, that truly hurt me inside. It's not the term itself, but how the term is applied. And in the end, once again I'm going to share my viewpoint with others. That doesn't mean that I think you're horrible for thinking differently, or even necessarily unjust in your beliefs, just that I am human too and have my own views about the world that we live in. And I have the right to share how I live my life with dogs, even if it doesn't match up or agree with yours. Some people vehemently disagree with me. That's fine by me, it doesn't affect in any way how I live my life. Some people agree with me, and see some things in what I've written. That's okay with me too. Once again if I didn't ever talk about or promote how I live my life, what I believe in, in the context of helping people with their dogs and perhaps helping them learn about something that yes, I feel they have a misunderstandign of, then what's the point in doing what I've been doing all this time?

    If you haven't noticed, there is a common thread that goes throughout most of my post. And that is the construct of values. We all have values. All of our values will be very different. Just as I have to respect that people will use certain things in the name of teaching (although there are some things I can just never respect, and that goes much deeper into values, but I'm sure everyone can relate to the feeling, even if the situations differ), I would hope that people can respect that I feel certain things are wrong and that I choose not to use them. It goes two ways, really. And whether or not you respect it is not going to change how I feel about them.

    It's just that the situation can go many ways (I would say two ways but it's not just two). Just because there are things I refuse to use with dogs, does not make me "unbalanced' or somehow inferior to somebody who uses the entire spectrum of tools available. Just because I do choose to go a lot gentler than you might, does not make me "extremist". It makes me, me. And I can only be me, and I wouldn't want to be anybody else. It's just like how I don't call you "unbalanced" if you don't use a clicker. I don't even call you 'unbalanced' if you use a prong collar. Yes, I disagree with them. And I would never in my good conscience recommend them. But I'll get over it, and I'll still respect you as a person. Just as I would hope people would respect my decisions regardless of how "froo-froo" or "idealistic" they seem to you.

    In the end, I don't put people into camps. Rather I look at us as we are, a community, comprised of each of our own individual households, each member taking up their own household upon a long street or on a block, and each household has its own independent thoughts, and feelings, and beliefs, and to stay on topic methods of working with their dogs. My household likely involves different things than your household does. Just like yours is likely different than the next person's. But yet the community learns to agree to disagree and overall the community moves on and thrives. That's what makes a community after all, rather than a camp, where separatism is promoted and encouraged.

    The only camps that exist, exist in the minds of those who place others and themselves within them.

    (Note: All references to "you" are to the general public, not to any poster in particular)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    Either that or I'm in my own camp. You decide. ;-)

     

    It's not my decision. And I don't care if you're in a camp or have set up your pup tent out in the middle of the wilderness. I'm not putting you in a camp. Smile But I know what you mean. No more camp-slamming.

    Kim_MacMillan
    It's based upon my relations with dogs and how I can get the best out of my interactions with them to make life easier.

     

    Well, it sounds like we're in the same camp, then. LOL

    Kim_MacMillan
    What frustrates ME is that because I feel this way, I am put "into" a particular camp, where people "assume" that I'm somehow egotistical or "positivist" or what have you, simply because of the values that I have.

     

    I think that goes for us all. I feel the same way.  Hmm... "We're more alike than we are different..." Wink

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    I'd rather get into a heated debate where I'm rigidly defending what I believe, than stretching myself so far just for the sake of being all-accepting.

    Yes, I can appreciate this. 

    If we are all going to say, "Well there are lots of methods and techniques available, do whatever suits you provided it doesn't harm the dog" then WHERE is the debate???  Why are we all here on this forum?  What is there to discuss?  All the heated debate might disappear... and so will the interesting discussion and so will a heckuvalot of learning.

    Four... While I see where you are coming from, I notice that you invest yourself in debate as well as offering advice to those who ask for it.  That's fine, but the point of debate is.... well that you DEBATE.  Someone picks out something they don't quite agree with it and put their point forward and then you do the same and so do lots of other people and lots and lots of ideas come forward and we all get the chance to stop and think in a new way for a second.  If I was to embrace you fully as a fellow dog owner and disregard the points where you and I disagree, we could both go skipping through the fresh meadows with rainbows all about and kittens gambolling through the flowers, but some really good discussions may never have taken place.  Just because I may often focus on the areas I disagree with doesn't mean I have put you or anyone else in a "camp".  It's just that that's often the way forward to an interesting discussion. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I had doubts of whether I would stay with this forum, but this thread speaks a lot deeper than the "no! no! no!" posts that I have seen over the past few months. 

    Truley
    I am sure I am thought of as evil because I continue to use a prong collar. Oh, and I have been known to poke Kord a time or two to get his attention, so now I am a dog abuser? I think not, just as I do not perceive a parent who slaps a child's hand or delivers a much need potch on the behind a child abuser.

    And how many people will read your post and tell you how you should be correcting your child without a slap, when they neither know your child nor see the circumstance that the slap was delivered?   I had a GSD that I spoke so softly to that people never even knew I was telling her what I wanted.  But I don't have that dog now, I will never have another like her, and I know I need another approach for the current fuzz-butt.   I thank the people that give me alternatives, and walk away from the ones who have pre-determined that I am a cruel person that cannot possibly fit into a perfect world (theirs). 

    When I read a post that mentions use of a particular item (eg. prong collar) and the thread is taken over by protesters of that item instead of addressing the actual subject, it is just a waste of time and energy.  I agree, people that abuse their animals do not join forums like this.  But neither do people that don't care to defend every word used in their post because the reader is just itching to find a reason to attack. 

    Yes, I have a thin skin.  Thanks for the thread. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    cat0
    Yes, I have a thin skin.  Thanks for the thread. 

     

    I, too, readily admit to having a thin skin (and I'm also appreciating this thread!). Smile I think that lots of folks who feel a special, even sacred, kinship with animals ARE sensitive, DO have thin skins.

    Unfortunately, discussion forums are not the face-to-face, tactile, sensory experiences that the thin skinned excel in. Rather, they are illuminated screens full of words ... words that have no life of their own other than what we breathe into them.

    More and more, I realize that each post I read (including my own) is an autobiography of the particular poster, regardless of the content. So, each post does more to reveal the poster's desires, boundaries, tastes, and personality, than anything else. I find, these days, that if I read that way, instead of actually looking for valuable information, I feel a lot more sympathy, and a lot less frustration. I find myself able to listen more and better.

    Even though I may not like what I'm hearing.

    And, I still don't make time or space for intolerance. Like Carla, I'm working on my disappointment that some folks just won't practice tolerance of others' differences. I've always copped to being intolerant of intolerance ...Embarrassed LOL!

    But, then, I think this comes back around to being thin skinned. I like to think that if I had a thicker skin, I wouldn't care how much others maligned the ideas and thoughts I hold dear; that I would be better able to be tolerant of intolerance! It's people like me, who champion open mindedness, balance, and acceptance that carry the heavier burden, after all. We've set our standards high, regarding the kind of world we want to participate in, and, in terms of discussion forums, that world begins at the tip of our fingers!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy
    That's fine, but the point of debate is.... well that you DEBATE. 

     

    Yes, it is, isn't it? And I love a good debate! I really do. But what happens (am I the only one who "feels" this?) is that emotions come into it ... and judgments, and assumptions. And it "feels"... not very clean. Snarky comments are made and insinuations and after a while it feels like there's a loss of respect for the fellow debaters and soon it starts to feel more like a "war" (as Truley mentioned) than a clean debate where the two opponents shake hands afterward and congratulate each other on a job well-done.

    I'm including myself in this, too. I do this and I don't like it! LOL  

    Chuffy
    Just because I may often focus on the areas I disagree with doesn't mean I have put you or anyone else in a "camp".  It's just that that's often the way forward to an interesting discussion. 

    You make too much darn sense! LOL

    cat0
    I thank the people that give me alternatives, and walk away from the ones who have pre-determined that I am a cruel person that cannot possibly fit into a perfect world (theirs). 

     

    I really like that. I think probably all of us have some thin skin in places... I think I am sensitive and I really don't want people to think I'm being less than loving to my animals. But you're right. I need to be strong enough to walk away. Instead of continuing to plead, "I'm not hurting my animals"! People are going to think what they think and they have the right and freedom to do so. Even if it's about me and it's false! LOL The truth is that I don't have to prove anything to anyone.

    I'm really appreciating this discussion although it's not a whole lot about using a hammer to do a caliper's job. And I guess it wasn't really meant to be. It was meant to be a way to open this very discussion, though I didn't realize it at the time.

    Thank you SO much for all the excellent input! I don't know if anyone else is getting much out of this, but I'm learning some important lessons...

    • Gold Top Dog

    For those who are saying they are thin-skinned....how do you define "intolerance"?  Is intolerance when someone is unwilling to use certain methods/tools on their own dog?  When they won't consider using it on ANY dog?  When they will not only not use it, but continually condemn it and those who do use it?  I think "intolerant" is becoming a loaded word here. Intolerance just means that someone is unwilling to do things the way someone else does, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a personal slam against the other person.  I am intolerant of certain levels of physical correction.  Translation - I will not use them on any dog ever.  That does NOT mean that I think people who DO use those methods are horrible people!  It just means *I* won't do it, and often the reason why has nothing to do with ethics, morals, spirituality, bonding, bla bla bla...it's just b/c I don't have enough experience with it to feel like I could do it safely and effectively.  My brother and my uncle can be quite heavy-handed when working with their dogs, but I still love them and don't condemn them just b/c of how they communicate with their dogs.  I'm not intolerant towards certain people using certain methods, I'm just intolerant of *me* using them.

     

    It all boils down to experience for me.  No one can truly understand my relationship with my animals b/c my experiences are unique, just like everyone else's are unique to them.  Some of us have never owned more than 1-2 animals at a time while others have packs.  Some of us have never been bit (badly) by a dog while others have more than once.  Some of us have never owned or worked with a truly aggressive dog, while others do it voluntarily on a daily basis.  My unique combination of experiences does not give me the right to start putting other people into categories.  I know what works for my dog, I know what got my arm ripped apart, I know whose advice I trust....  Just by virtue of caring enough and being interested enough to come to this board and learn, the only assumption I will make is that everyone else has their own set of experiences that makes what works for them just as valid.

    • Gold Top Dog

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Okay I will try again. My posts are disapperaring tonight.

    I do not mind people not agreeing with me.

    I do not mind people saying that they are not comfortable doing what I do

    I do not mind people disagreeing or even hating CM or me for that matter

    I am sometimes bothered when someone thinks I am cruel to my dogs

    I am always bothered when certain words derail threads when the words had little if anything to do with the thread or the problem. I am bothered when the concept of leadership is debunked because people do not like CM, because I believe the concept to be crucial and did way before CM ever was known. I have no problem if the OP comes in and says they want to know how to alpha roll their dog and make it know who is boss, hey then go for it but if they just mention leadership or dominance why do we have to go into the debate. You (generic you) say leadership is crap and then I feel I have to say that it is not crap and then off we go and the poor OP gets nothing but entertainment and no help. I bet in most cases the advice offered is almost the same if we just took the time to offer it.

     Anyway that is my biggest problem, I do not mind being labeled a them or a us, I think I fall into both sides myself but it is not the label that bugs me, it is the attack on the words.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for starting this thread, Four.  I have a thick skin, but I do admit I'm tired of the same-old same-old. Too much wasted energy and talent! 

    I think we can disagree without making personal attacks, or picking fights, or making insinuations. Disagreements are great - I learn the most when considering opposing viewpoints.

    I'm pretty eclectic about technique.  I don't adhere to any schools of thought.  I do try and keep an open mind, because while my experience with dogs has been relatively limited, I have learned that without a doubt different dogs call for different approaches. And I suppose that is why I'm so interested in hearing about the different ways people do things, or talk about the things they do.