Reaching for the Sledge Hammer to do a Caliper's Job

Liesje

how do you define "intolerance"?

 I am intolerant of certain levels of physical correction.  Translation - I will not use them on any dog ever.  That does NOT mean that I think people who DO use those methods are horrible people!

espencer

Chuffy

A bigger priority is that the dog is also OK with it. The "wrong way" is the way that discourages a dog from learning and/or harms the dog or his relationship with his owner.

 

Well every body here can tell you that their dogs are ok with the techniques they use and that their techniques dont discourage, harm their dogs or their relationship with them, i know mine doesnt

So if i tell you that, would you believe me? because its true, the people out there that really harm their dogs and their relationship with them are not subscribed to this forum 

Okay, this isn't directed at you, spencer, or anyone else in particular.

I'm slightly reluctant to believe that everyone on this forum has a great relationship with their dog, who is totally cool with their method of choice. This is because not 3 years ago, that's where I thought I was. It never even crossed my mind that I didn't have a wonderful, healthy relationship with my dog. The sucky thing about dogs, IMO, is that they're very forgiving. They will do well on a lot of things that any other animal will do horribly on. If I'd tried to even touch my hare to get him to do something while we were building our trust in one another, it all would have been shot to pieces. As it was, if I did something wrong it could take several months to get back on track. When we had built the relationship we have now, it took comparing it to what I had with my dog to realise my relationship with her wasn't nearly as good as it could be. It's good, but it's not mind-blowing like I now know it can be. It's truly incredible what kind of highly communicative bond you can build with an animal if you're forced to be very mindful of their feelings. That hare knows what I need from him far better than my dog does. He doesn't care nearly as much as my dog does, but he doesn't even need to try to understand me. He just has to glance at me to totally get what I'm on about. I can't wait to try to foster the same sort of relationship in a dog. The very thought of it takes my breath away. If a wild hare can come to be so magically responsive, then what would the same methods produce in a dog??

So, dogs are deceptive often. They do fine, but there's a difference between fine and mind-bogglingly amazing. Us humans I think rarely realise that until something shows us. Anyway, I haven't tried my hare method on a puppy yet, but that's certainly what I'll be doing with my Lappie when I get it next year. I'll let you all know if it works. To me, it's worth months of screw ups and frustration. That's what I went through with Kit, and when we came out the other end, we were practically a part of each other. He inexplicably perked up a full week before I returned from 6 months overseas. What we have is magical. I ache for a method to make magic with my animals. I'm just trying to express that to folks. Maybe someone will pursue their own path to magic if I convince them there is one.

 

I had a similar experience with Conrad, Corvus. For his first three years with us I was a training nightmare and my method was largely based on dominance theory, Monks of New Skete (pre-revised-edition, aka The Alpha Roll) and a choke collar. DH and I have always loved Conrad and Conrad has always loved us to a fault. Our relationship has always been close and he's always tried very hard to be good for us despite the quirks of his personality that make him not the easiest dog to handle. He has always slept in our bed (not every night, but the option is always there for him) and been a velcro dog. I would have told you three years ago that my relationship with Conrad was a beautiful, wonderful thing.

Marlowe is like my Kit. He was such an enigma when we first got him, he turned my world upside-down and I had no idea what to do with him. But in the intervening time since we'd gotten Conrad, I'd moved into and then back out of my Cesar Millan phase, started volunteering at an animal shelter, read Bones Would Rain from the Sky, and worked with dozens of homeless dogs through positive reinforcement. So when faced with this little black puzzle, I turned more towards that end of the spectrum and after 6 months had a CGC dog with whom I had a relationship that I can't even describe in words. We're completely a team, partners.

Conrad is such a sensitive soul I'm actually not sure I'll ever be able to really repair our relationship fully. A more resilient, confident dog would just go with the flow and enjoy the new relationship, but Conrad holds on to a lot. We may never be a team or partners.

Though none of that was really what I cruised over here to say, actually. Just that I don't think I should be required to be unquestioning and accepting of what every dog trainer does. There are some, frankly, that are just psychopaths. Look up Martin Richling if you've never heard of him. The man's a menace. Then there's that woman in Chicago who's method was to strap shock collars to the dog's genitals (her animal cruelty case is still working it's way through the system and she is still training dogs!). There's a guy in Canada who runs dogs heads in to walls. There's a dude here in Pittsburgh who's website has to be seen to be believed (I'll try to dig it up--you won't know whether to laugh or cry). There are some complete nutjobs out there training dogs, and all of them will tell you that what they do will not harm your dog and will in fact improve your relationship with the dog. So where do you draw the line on that? What is so beyond the pale you would consider someone a menace to dogs?
 

Just some thoughts this morning...  

corvus

I'm slightly reluctant to believe that everyone on this forum has a great relationship with their dog, who is totally cool with their method of choice. This is because not 3 years ago, that's where I thought I was.

And was it someone on a discussion board that convinced you that you had more to learn? Was it people telling you that what you were doing was poisoning your relationship with your dog that made you finally see the light?

I used to smoke. And my sister quit. All of a sudden, she became the poster child for quitting smoking. She was a militant ex-smoker. I swore I would never be like that. And I haven't been. I still can't stand people who have quit smoking (or drinking or lost weight or stopped spanking their kids or got religion or lost religion or WHATEVER ...) and think they now have it together and are pledged to get everyone else to make the same change in their lives.

Yeah, smoking is bad for you. But I have had people try to convince me (preach to me) to drink my own urine for health, to believe we came from aliens, to have an "open marriage", to somehow see the light and join the happy people.

Why is it so important that my relationship with my dog is the same as your relationship with your dog? And how do you know it's not better than yours? (generic "you";) 

I'm reluctant to believe that everyone on this forum has a great relationship with their dog, too. I just don't think it's my business to impose my standards on them. I will advise and explain and do what I can to give them information, but that's really all I have a human right to do. And I don't think preaching and judgment do any good. They harm. That's just my own belief...

corvus

So, dogs are deceptive often. They do fine, but there's a difference between fine and mind-bogglingly amazing.

I don't agree that dogs are deceptive. If anything, we just don't understand what they're saying. And yes, there's a difference between fine and amazing. Is it required that every dog owner have an amazing relationship with their dog? And who's to say that it isn't amazing? Two souls enter into an agreement with each other, me and my dog. We are there to give and take, to teach and learn from each other. We are the only ones who have any right to say what our relationship is about. I don't know why people feel that they can make my relationship with my dog better when they've never even seen us together, nor met either one. I just think it's presumptuous (not on your part, corvus) to assume that anyone's relationship with their dog can be deciphered by reading a few words written by the person.

It's one thing to share knowledge, experience and information with another person. But when judgment, disapproval and "nastiness" enter the picture, when "right" and "wrong" take precedence over imparting knowledge and wisdom... it becomes MUCH less productive. Only the strong survive. And I'm a really strong person. And I will survive. But I see people chased away by these kinds of arguments all the time. There are threads where people are still fighting and the OP has made one or 2 posts on the first page months ago never to post again... and the people still fight. It's just so sad...

houndlove

I don't think I should be required to be unquestioning and accepting of what every dog trainer does.

I don't think you are being required or even asked to do that. I know I'm not asking that of anyone. All I'm asking is for people not to jump to conclusions and not to judge so harshly without the information needed to make an educated judgment. Of course no one has to comply. I'm just asking. There's nothing wrong with asking.

I don't think any of us would agree with the methods you referenced.  

houndlove

So where do you draw the line on that? What is so beyond the pale you would consider someone a menace to dogs?

cat0

I had a GSD that I spoke so softly to that people never even knew I was telling her what I wanted.  But I don't have that dog now, I will never have another like her, and I know I need another approach for the current fuzz-butt.   I thank the people that give me alternatives, and walk away from the ones who have pre-determined that I am a cruel person that cannot possibly fit into a perfect world (theirs). 

Oh, I just love this part......

That would be the core of many problems on this board......it wouldn't ever have to be an us versus them, if one group wasn't made to feel like a bunch of cruel dog abusers....I look at all my dogs, I evaluate them, and then I see how each one needs to be handled.....I am way more stern with my Shepherds, due to their personalities and being pushy, compared to the other two.......one formula doesn't fit all.....

I'm not sure what "us" and "them" groups we're talking about. I abandoned all notions of "leadership" and "dominance" some years ago in my training, but I am not a "+R nazi". I use ecollars. Yes, ecollars. I use and advocate operant conditioning, not "pack theory". Operant conditioning has four "tools": -R, +R, +P, and -P. I have not had to use +P on any of my current dogs, but would not hesitate to suggest it for certain situations.

I dispute that "pack theory" and theories of "leadership" are relevant to training dogs. Most people who use "pack theory" are just using operant conditioning and not realizing it. I used to be a "yank and spank" trainer. yup. Thought I was using "respect" , "dominance", "leadership" to train my dogs. This was long before CM came along, by the way. His "ideas" are not new as some claim;  in fact, they are old and outdated.  The dog community was in the process of abandoning them as not very effective when a certain TV show came on the air.

And anyone who thinks +R is all about handing out endless numbers of treats is very uninformed.

OK, let me just offer a definition to pre-empt confusion or derailing:

FOR ME - a leash correction is anything MORE than a gentle invitation or reminder.

Now SUPPOSING I say "Leash corrections (see above) are abusive"

There will be a faction of people here who come along and say: "WHAT??? Well *I* have used them occasionally on a few of my dogs and let me tell you, I am NOT an animal abuser!" Or words to that effect.

 That is very frustrating to me.  I have called NO ONE an animal abuser.  By saying "Leash corrections are abusive" I wish that to be taken as an invitation for YOU (generic) to tell ME why they might not be, why they may be effective, why they have worked for you.

Can we all please be a little less defensive, even if you consider yourself a "thin skinned person"?  Can we all please default the assumption that everyone else here wants to DISCUSS (clue: discussion board ) ??  Can we all think the best of each other and stop all this defensive BS?  It gets so TIRESOME to have to clarify - "No, I don't think YOU are an abusive person... I was criticising the TECHNIQUE not the USERS of the technique. There's a difference."

If I have "attacked" the technique, then you "defend" it and maybe I'll learn something.... even if that something is just a little more about another person and another way of thinking.  I'm on a discssion board.  I'm here to discuss - learn, share my own thoughts and experiences.  What are you (generic) here for?

mudpuppy

Most people who use "pack theory" are just using operant conditioning and not realizing it. I used to be a "yank and spank" trainer. yup. Thought I was using "respect" , "dominance", "leadership" to train my dogs.

Here is your error I think.  There are folks here who use leadership and respect and pack theory etc and are NOT yank n spank and are in fact quite offended by the implication that they are, just because of the use of the wrds "leadership" "pack" "dominance".  Don't assume that everyone using those principles is like you used to be

I said it somewhere else but I'll say it here too.  Jan Fennell recommends ignoring your dogs when you reunite.  This does work.  She claims that this is because the dog sees you as alpha.  I say, it was probably more because of OC.  You have used negative punishment and positive reinforcement to get the dog to calm down quickly on your arrival and learn to control himself.  But, here is a thing: Could it not be both?  Maybe true "alphas" are smart enough to only reinforce what they want and reamin aloof and lead by example the rest of the time?  How can you be SURE that the dog responded this way or that way because of X?  All of us can only speculate.  Maybe we aree all using different words to tel the same truth.

Chuffy

mudpuppy

Most people who use "pack theory" are just using operant conditioning and not realizing it. I used to be a "yank and spank" trainer. yup. Thought I was using "respect" , "dominance", "leadership" to train my dogs.

Here is your error I think.  There are folks here who use leadership and respect and pack theory etc and are NOT yank n spank and are in fact quite offended by the implication that they are, just because of the use of the wrds "leadership" "pack" "dominance".  Don't assume that everyone using those principles is like you used to be

I said it somewhere else but I'll say it here too.  Jan Fennell recommends ignoring your dogs when you reunite.  This does work.  She claims that this is because the dog sees you as alpha.  I say, it was probably more because of OC.  You have used negative punishment and positive reinforcement to get the dog to calm down quickly on your arrival and learn to control himself.  But, here is a thing: Could it not be both?  Maybe true "alphas" are smart enough to only reinforce what they want and reamin aloof and lead by example the rest of the time?  How can you be SURE that the dog responded this way or that way because of X?  All of us can only speculate.  Maybe we aree all using different words to tel the same truth.

 

Obviously MP you were using those methods incorrectly if you were yanking and spanking!  And Chuffy is correct, when you say you use to use corrections so you were a yank and spank trainer you make those who do use those methods correctly defensive.  I use lease corrections (although now that River is three and there is little need for training at that level any more) but you imply by your statements that I was a YANK AND SPANK!!  And that is not true.

luvmyswissy

"4" you will soon get tired and sit back and watch too. 

I'm there. I just had a response typed and I said, F it. I'm feeding the flames. Thanks for your honesty.   I will now become an observer in this particular insanity. 

ETA: I'm sorry you deleted the rest of your post. It was very helpful to me. Fortunately, I read it before it was deleted.  

FourIsCompany

luvmyswissy

"4" you will soon get tired and sit back and watch too. 

 

I'm there. I just had a response typed and I said, F it. I'm feeding the flames. Thanks for your honesty.   I will now become an observer in this particular insanity. 

ETA: I'm sorry you deleted the rest of your post. It was very helpful to me. Fortunately, I read it before it was deleted.  

I did that because after I read it again I dicided, why?  I had to make one comment and the rest was just pushing up daisies!!

I don't think that I belong to a canp either.  I trained my first dog by myself no classes nothing I was 11 years old.  He was the most eager to please dog I have ever seen.  I just had to tell him good job.  I never had to use a leash correction or anything else and to this day he is still the best dog I've ever had.  You can call him from acros the off leash dog park and he comes running halfway to you if you do this sit/ down hand motion down he goes and he stays there until you call him again.  My newest dog is nothing like him, she is more bull-headed.  I took her to a training class, I've had to use leash corrections.  Praise and food don't mean much to her if she really wants to do something else.  I've poked her in the side to get her attention focused on me so she doesn't go crazy on another dog.  Someone let their dog of leash and she jumped on my dog. Lily was 90 pounds at that time.  I held her in a down stay does that make me mean? Maybe but it kept her from ripping that smaller dog to peices while the dogs owner got her back on leash.  I never would have done that with the first dog I metioned I wouldn't need to.  The methods you use depend a lot on the dog your training.  Before I got lily I said that I would always train my dogs like I did the first one corrections not needed.  I don't think like that anymore. I still use +R but I know that if I need to I'll lay on lily to keep others or her safe. 

and why do you use leash corrections?  I can't think of any situation with any dog where a leash correction would be your most effective behavioral modification tool.

FourIsCompany

luvmyswissy

"4" you will soon get tired and sit back and watch too. 

 

I'm there. I just had a response typed and I said, F it. I'm feeding the flames. Thanks for your honesty.   I will now become an observer in this particular insanity.

I see some of you are at a point where I was at before I ever joined this board. In fact, I have a handful of boards I belong to, but usually only read through these days. Sadly, this board is starting to fall into the "read through" catagory. Oh well...I still can't say this board has been a waste of my time. It just is what it is.

One thing I try to do is separate knowledge and experience from the behavior and politics of the participants, and try not to take or make things personal. This can be very hard to do!

I will say that there is not a participant here that I 100% agree with, or I feel is 100% full of beans when it comes to discussing dogs.

To me, life is a journey, not a destination.

 There is at least one person on this forum who freely admits that some of the information he received here DID alter his opinion.  No one beat him over the head with it, but it was the persistent suggestion that he try before doubting that made a difference, I suspect.  Most of the time, I find that the most reluctance to our methods come from those who have not thoroughly grasped them yet.  It isn't that you (colloquial, not you personally) don't have some idea of this, but that you have not made the effort to really learn the mechanics (a la Kathy Sdao, or Karen Pryor's idea of the mechanics) of this method, and really given it a try, before clinging to the "balanced" bandwagon.  No one is saying you should not be balanced, but IMO, you are not able to speak against +R if you do not have personal experience using it, to the exclusion of the other methods.  I do think everyone draws the line where they draw it.  But, I can tell you that my dogs, and my students' dogs are happier the closer the line gets to where the likes of those two trainers have suggested that it be, than they were when the line was closer to the Martin Richlings of the world.  Or even to the traditional obedience club idea of training.  Personally, I like to see joy on my dogs' faces when they "get it".  Until you see "the look" for yourself, the obedient dog will always be enough to satisfy you.  But, if you want to continue to defend that position no one can stop you.  Funny, but when people continue to beat the dead horse (I miss that smiley) about "balanced" they consider that normal, but when we do it about "positive", suddenly that's considered the sledgehammer approach and we are a bunch of posi-nazi's.  So be it.  Hand me my hammer.