Akita vs. Shar Pei (Aggressive / Fighting)

I'd just like to say to the OP that you have my every sympathy.  I have no experience of the kind of thing you are going through. 

I suspect that if I was in a similar situation, I would, as some have said "give up", or "throw in the towel", even if it were not the breeds you are living with.  NOT because it's all the dogs fault (which it ISN'T if they just plain don't like one another) but because for me, SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT.  I am not perfect and all it would take would be ONE little slip in the rehab programme (whether that follows a leadership protocol, or something else or a combination of things) and one of my beloved dogs could be seriously injured, or worse.  I do not think I could live with that, for the sake of (as someone else said) being "successful".  Even should the worst not happen, I would question whether they were truly happy.  I know that I for one will not think any less of you should you take the difficult decision to part with one of them.  But at the same time I applaud you for doing the best you can to have these dogs cohabitate with you safely.... I think you are a marvel.  I sincerely hope it goes well.

Espencer, I would like to echo someone elses question:  Have you lived with two dogs in this scenario?  Large, powerful, same sex, bred for fighting dogs that absolutely hate each other and one will probably kill the other if given the opportunity.  What is your experience with the Akita breed?  Not only would this be of immense value to the OP, but I have NO experience with this kind of extreme situation and would be grateful if you would share.

content deleted per Gina's request.  To the OP, you've gotten some good advice in contacting a local behavorialist and total separation for now, and maybe for always.  It's a sad situation when two dogs decide that they hate each other, and even sadder if they are given a chance to act on that hatred.

Moderator speaking,

Please refrain from posting further to this thread, if you cannot do so without sarcasm and disrespectful tones aimed at other members. That applies to ALL posting here.

I just wanted to say that the OP could do well by heeding your advice and that of Ratsicles. People who have directly owned an Akita.

It matches up with the little that I know about them and have seen. Not that the situation is the Akita's fault. It doesn't sound like it, to me. But you said it best. They don't fight to be leader or "alpha." They fight until the opponent isn't breathing anymore. And they hold grudges, having something of an elephantine memory. Kind of like my friend, Lee. Burn him once, shame on you. And there won't be a second time. They are, indeed, a special breed and Ratsicles' recent trials and tribulations certainly attest to that. It's not just a matter of firm leadership or even having a clicker in the right hand and a treat in the left hand, which Ratsicles did more than once. It's a matter of 24/7 security and a strict procedure of "troop movements" that can not vary, ever. Not that it can't be done. But I imagine it is very challenging, to say the least.

OK.  As you can see, I have been busy with the red ink.  To those who did nothing more than include quotes that I later edited, I do apologize, but removing things once, is simply not an option.

If it is neccessary for me to come back and further edit the kind of comments that I already have, we will be talking privately.  And, yeah, I'm taking names and ready to submit them to Admin if needed.

Lets remember our manners, stop insisting on being RIGHT and help the poor OP with these issues.

To the original poster: Like i said before, you need to identify if there is something the dogs are missing, it might be exercise, it might be guidance, it might be not clear rules, it might be lack of discipline, it might be lack of respect, it might be lack of leadership, etc.

You need to put time and effort on it because it can be done, find a behaviorist that can help you to see what is missing

Usually if your dogs dont have clear rules they will often think they are the ones who need to set them for the rest of the pack, so good leadership is key in this situation 

espencer

Well you cant ignore hundreds of years of selective breeding but the were dogs first THOUSANDS of years before that, you dont need to "force" anybody, you need to see whats what they need, why they are turning against members of their OWN "pack", are their needs fulfilled? are the rules well established in the pack? can they get away with being rude sometimes?

There are dogs that DON'T pack.  And there are dogs that historically pre-date the common dog.

 Do the genetic research, Akitas and Shar Peis are breeds that are in the top 5 or so of original dogs.  They are ancient breeds. 

 
Akitas generally don't pack, they pair with one member of the opposite sex.  That's the way they've been hunting and living for thousands of years.

SharPei have been fighting other dogs for at least that long as well.

Both dogs are very good at disquising their intentions and waiting for the appropriate unsupervised mini-second in which to continue this blood feud. The OP has discovered this already.  Let's not mix up good intentions with BAD practices.

espencer

it is our work to find what our dog is missing and provide it so he does not feel, anxious, frustrated, aggressive, etc 

 I don't think so.  Our responsibility is to advise the OP on responsible practices that can keep both dogs safe until such a time when a qualified behaviorist can come in and assess the situation.  IMO this translates into separation and careful management of the situation.
 

Xerxes

espencer

Well you cant ignore hundreds of years of selective breeding but the were dogs first THOUSANDS of years before that, you dont need to "force" anybody, you need to see whats what they need, why they are turning against members of their OWN "pack", are their needs fulfilled? are the rules well established in the pack? can they get away with being rude sometimes?

 

 

There are dogs that DON'T pack.  And there are dogs that historically pre-date the common dog.

 Do the genetic research, Akitas and Shar Peis are breeds that are in the top 5 or so of original dogs.  They are ancient breeds. 

 
Akitas generally don't pack, they pair with one member of the opposite sex.  That's the way they've been hunting and living for thousands of years.

SharPei have been fighting other dogs for at least that long as well.

Both dogs are very good at disquising their intentions and waiting for the appropriate unsupervised mini-second in which to continue this blood feud. The OP has discovered this already.  Let's not mix up good intentions with BAD practices.

espencer

it is our work to find what our dog is missing and provide it so he does not feel, anxious, frustrated, aggressive, etc 

 I don't think so.  Our responsibility is to advise the OP on responsible practices that can keep both dogs safe until such a time when a qualified behaviorist can come in and assess the situation.  IMO this translates into separation and careful management of the situation.
 

Ed, I agree that this is the most responsible thing to do.  We have heard from Gina and Ratsicles, both of whom owned Akitas.  Ratsicles got the same advice our OP has gotten from some of the experienced owners of Akitas, and some trainers, and some generally experienced dog owners.  She admits that she should have taken that advice (very generous and big of her to share that, I think), and I hope that our OP does not make the same mistake that others have made in trying to force these dogs to live together.  Corvus and others have expressed it rather well, and even in homes where there is no lack of human leadership, dogs don't always get along.  There are other parts to this equation, such as breed propensities, individual temperaments, variables in socialization and prior learning, and just plain chance, that we cannot reasonably hope to assess from a distance.  That, IMO, is a job for a professional veterinarian behaviorist or Ph.D. level behaviorist, in a situation where you have two large dogs that have inflicted level 3 or 4 bites on one another.  Trying to ameliorate this at home, without help, is a prescription for disaster.  In my opinion, strict separation and professional intervention is a must here.  This is a situation that can result in the death of one of these dogs, or serious injury to the owner if a dog redirects.  Not to be taken lightly IMO.  Please, OP, get professional help, and be sure it is from a qualified individual.  Check the Animal Behavior Society web site or your nearest veterinary college for a referral. 

espencer

You need to put time and effort on it because it can be done, find a behaviorist that can help you to see what is missing

Where does your conviction come from? 

My apologies.  I will admit I am genuinely interested to hear of your experiences, if you would prefer me to pm you with a request or start a new thread for the purpose then please let me know.  Otherwise I will assume that you would prefer not to share your experiences and leave it at that.  I only ask publicly for you to elaborate because it would be of immense benefit to the OP and any others facing such a horrible problem.

glenmar

stop insisting on being RIGHT and help the poor OP with these issues.

(emphasis added) 

I second that 

Luvntzus

I really don't think anyone should be giving advice unless they have experience with the two breeds being discussed and/or dealt with a similar situation. In my opinion it's REALLY dangerous to just tell someone to make sure their dogs' needs are met and work on leadership. I think almost no one here is qualified to make that assessment. It's always better to err on the side of caution when you're a non-professional giving advice over the internet, especially without ever even seeing the dogs or owner.

Thank you for these words of caution, which I hope others will take to heart.  The OP has a significant problem which probably needs professional evaluation and attention, and a delay, or implementation of the wrong advice, could be devastating.  These are large powerful breeds, and the damage they could do to one another is not a trifling matter.  Good post. 

Leadership is REALLY important on cases like this, leadership does not mean to bully your dog, leadership means to make the house rules clear a, and no, you dont have to do that by wrestling with the dog, the op might let the dogs to get away with something sometimes yes and sometimes no, which confuses the dogs, you cant just ask for a behaviorist help and once he is leaving just keep doing the same you were doing before

Nobody here said the help of a professional is not needed, so in my opinion and experience the op needs to step up a little bit more on the leadership skils, leadership mean also to GUIDE the dogs, to show them what is needed to do and what is not

I dont remember anyone here saying that the ONLY thing they need is meet their need and work on leadership, that is a MUST with every dog, it does not matter if they are aggressive or they are well behaved, in this case they ALSO need a professional

By the way i think the op never came back after his/her last post, i think the op is an avid fan of CM so thats the ideology he/she is going for 

 After re-reading this thread I have to say that I do not think anyone has made lite of the OP's problem, nor has anyone suggested that the only thing the OP need do is "satisfy the dogs needs and be a leader". espencer posted that the OP should seek the advice of a professional yet that has been overlooked by posts suggesting the the advice that has been offered is faulty because it contains the leadership and needs material within it.

 I find it amazing that leadership and control could be so opposed in a thread about two such breeds. It is by no means everything, but I find it difficult to believe that anyone could think it is not important.