Akita vs. Shar Pei (Aggressive / Fighting)

Millsan,

 I just wanted to say I feel for your situation!  I adopted a Shar-pei/Golden Retriever almost 4 yrs ago.  And I KNOW EXACTLY how quickly they react to other dogs.  Luckily I found out her situation within a few months after adoption and realized that my dream of having another dog with her wasn't going to happen.  She fights for the death with dogs.  We have seen behaviorists, took training classes for dogs that are aggressive with other dogs. AND I can confidently say nothing will make her change.  The only time I see her not react to a dog is if it's the tiniest of tiniest dogs.. say the smallest of the small chihuahuas.  One day we were at the vet (which when i call to make an appt. now we are promptly given the last appt of the day and she waits in the car till its show time-we take no chances) anyways there was a little baby chi, probably in for its 1st check up and even though i didn't let her close enough to swallow it in one bite she playfully swatted at the little pup that was pushed over numerous times by her innability to realize her own strength.  I would never chance her alone with a dog.. ever.  Precautions are always taken, gates added to decks and porches so even if she slips out the door she is not in free rein to hurt other dogs.  Meanwhile she is the most sweetest lap dog ever.. all 75lbs of her.  She loves all people and even strangers...  she even puts up with little kids hanging on her at the holidays.  But a dog... NEVER.  I have come to realize that she will never be able to cope with the existence of another dog... whether it's walking by our house, or walking past us on a walk.  She is completely a fear/agression case.  After a fight she cowers with her head between my knees shaking, crying.  The problem is that she's part Shar-pei and can kill, she doesn't just get in a scruff.  I have seen major damage done to other dogs unfortunately.  I just hope it never happens again.  All of the fights have involved dogs with owners who do not listen and do not appreciate owners like me who warn them time after time.  Just yesterday we were walking down the street, about to make a corner and there was a dog (GSDxGolden) with its owner.  I politely asked if the dog was leashed, she said yes so I continued to walk by, her dog lunged at mine (we were on the opposite sides of the street) and that set my dog off.  She went nuts, as did the other dog, luckily the other owner was already cautioned by me asking if her dog was on a leash and prepared, but that situation could easily been an unsuspecting owner dropping the leash when the dog lunged because she wasn't prepared.  Last summer we were camping, we were sitting by the campfire with about 10 people a couple dogs... all leashed.  A German Shepard (which are not my fav anymore) got out of its collar chained across the street and came up to my dog... standing there frozen solid staring at my dog, my dog reacted... the GSD was twice her height, was on top of her biting her neck and head, i still had the leash because there was no way i was going to let my dog get hit by a car or anything, i screamed for the owners of the GSD which seemed to take forever for them to get there, they couldn't get their dog off mine because it had no collar and they couldn't get a good grip on it. Finally they broke loose, in the end, the GSD bit and broke my wrist, my dog was scared out of her mind and wouldn't leave the camper the whole week but to pee- had a few small puncture wounds on her neck and head, and the GSD eventhough it was twice her size had a 2 1/12" circle of skin completely ripped out of its side.  They also didn't take their dog for a couple days to the vet and it got infected.. great owners.  Oh and to add to their great owner status... they actually confessed that this had happend before.. getting loose, attacking other dogs...  IF that was me there is now way I would have left my dog unattended outside tied up.  NO WAY!  In fact my dog is never outside unattended.. ever.  It's too risky!    I think in that whole rant (sorry) my point was.. even though I'm 100% careful with my dog, and she can't get loose, accidents still happen because there are other people out there that aren't careful with their dogs.  I use to take my dog to a Howl-o-ween party, we dont' go anymore, not because i can't handle her, but because i can't handle the other owners out there that don't listen to me when i tell them that my dog is aggressive and to please tighten up their leash... they don't.. keep looking all around paying attention to everything but their dog.. then my dog snaps because their dog just crossed my dogs imaginary safety box that surrounds her... then they look at my like I have a beast on my hands.  Some people just don't get aggressive dogs, whether it's part of their breed or not.  And I think that until they own one, they won't ever get it.  I know I didn't get it till I got Shanghai, now I'm always on my toes making sure their isn't some loose dog roaming the neighborhood before we step outside.  AND i know with my future dogs that I will probably be weary of strange dogs that could have shanghais behavior and hurt my future dog.  This is definitely a life lesson in the making!  I also might stay clear of dogs with a strong jaw like hers.  I don't know, but I can simpathize with you and I personally think keeping them seperated is your best bet.  I know you don't want to see anymore injuries.. you love them both.  Good luck! 

mudpuppy

Telling people that all they have to do is "be more of a leader" isn't going to save Rufus's life.

 Since this is a thread of someone seeking assistance I am only going to say that no one has suggested that the OP "Only need to be a leader" and every thing will be hunky dory. content deleted

 I also think that constantly discounting leadership and implying that is has no value whatsoever is somewhat frightening in light of the breed we are discussing. You call me irresponsible yet you have no idea what I am saying, content deleted

 I have not advocated not separating the dogs; I have even stated that you should separate them when you cannot be present and paying attention to what is going on. I do think it is possible for the OP to keep both dogs and not have to separate them 100% of the time forever until the end of time as you stated was her only option short of re-homing one. I believe I even mentioned seeking professional assistance as well, content deleted.

 At this point I am wishing I had an ignore button, as I would use it.

rwbeagles

100% separation within a household, is NOT throwing in the towel...it is keeping your beloved pets safe and reducing their stress and your own. I am havng a really hard time seeing why ANYONE would say this is not a valid solution.

  I have not said that the dogs should be allowed to run free together whenever they wish. I do think that separation is what should happen when the OP cannot be present and paying attention. I just do not think that this is the “forever” solution and efforts should be made to work it so that they can be together in the presence of the OP without fighting.

rwbeagles

ETA: I urge the OP...if you are still here to please PLEASE talk with Akita folks about this. They and only they know what you are potentially dealing with. They've been there, done that...and have actual hands on experience with the breed. Again I have great resources for said lists/people if you want them...PM me.

   This is very good advice. The Akita people are best equipped to assist with this problem.

 Millsan

  It sounds like you are already doing a lot to address this issue. I wish you well in your endeavors and apologize for the thread being somewhat derailed in an argument against leadership.

I've lived the "one dog is willing to kill the other" life.  And frankly, that meant management 24/7.  Did the dogs ever interact?  Yes, but only with my FULL attention.  And I mean full.  Once in a blue moon they were allowed to play together in the living room, but I was in tune with Ivan's subtlest of signals and stopped everything at the slightest hint of trouble.

Things can happy soooo quickly. 

As much as I believe in the pack mentality, and I am not an expert on Akitas, but I have heard about their issues.....I had a female Husky that was a fighter.....and I mean a fighter, this dog would fight other Huskies, GSDs......it didn't matter....she was intact, breeding stock, and would not give up.....all I am saying is, there are dogs that will NOT get along with any other dogs.....she only accepted her own pups........and there was no way of ever getting peace.....I know she would have fought till death.......

 It gives me the willies a little bit that people are talking about teaching these dogs to get along. It seems way premature to me. If you screw up in this situation, it could well mean death to one of the dogs. All you need do is miss a signal that is already as subtle as they get. Now, I'm no dog expert, but I am a zoologist and I have worked with a lot of animals that are a whole lot harder to read than dogs and managed to get by pretty well. Dogs are pretty easy to me, but all the same, I would not be staking the life of one of my animals on my ability to click and move fast enough to intervene. There's not a lot you can do when things turn nasty in an instant on the other side of the room. I too have lived with two dogs intent on killing each other, and realistically, you can never trust them. You always have to be with them, and you always have to be close enough to break them up if a fight does break out. And leadership doesn't count for much. The dogs just don't hear you when their blood is up and they want to kill. People can get hurt, dogs can die. You can't afford to try things out; you have to have back-ups in place.

While I do believe dogs are animals first and then dogs and then breeds, what we're talking about here is not a problem between two animals, or even a problem between two dogs. It's a problem between two breeds. You can't ignore hundreds of years of selective breeding. Compounding that, the dogs apparently don't like each other. Yes, you could force them to be civil to one another, but what would that achieve? Would the dogs like each other? Would they forget their feud? I doubt it. All you will have done is push the feud under the surface so that you have less warning when it does burst out, and the explosion will probably be more violent. You can't mess around here. It has to be complete separation at least until things have settled down. Just think about how it would feel if one of them killed the other. I couldn't live with myself if that happened. If it were me, I'd have two gates/doors between them just in case one failed. It's just not worth experimenting, IMO. If you want them together, they need to be under physical control with leashes. And it's probably best there be two people, because I've seen fights break out between two dogs on leashes held by one person, and it's awkward and dangerous. There's no fast way to split them up, and they're right on top of you.

I think it's worthwhile to think what kind of life both dogs and you are going to have in the future and work out if you can all be happy with that arrangement.  

corvus

While I do believe dogs are animals first and then dogs and then breeds, what we're talking about here is not a problem between two animals, or even a problem between two dogs. It's a problem between two breeds. You can't ignore hundreds of years of selective breeding. Compounding that, the dogs apparently don't like each other. Yes, you could force them to be civil to one another

Well you cant ignore hundreds of years of selective breeding but the were dogs first THOUSANDS of years before that, you dont need to "force" anybody, you need to see whats what they need, why they are turning against members of their OWN "pack", are their needs fulfilled? are the rules well established in the pack? can they get away with being rude sometimes?

Again, pitbulls actually were breed to attack other dogs HOWEVER you know and i know that there are pitbulls out there that can live with other breeds with out problem, IMO this Akita is missing something in his life which causes the breed on him to come out in a negative way, it is our work to find what our dog is missing and provide it so he does not feel, anxious, frustrated, aggressive, etc 

 Espencer, I wouldn't say I disagree with you as such. It always helps to try to work out whether a dog's needs are fulfilled and whether that's at the bottom of odd behaviour. However, there are two things I think we need to focus on. Firstly, both these breeds do have a natural tendency to dislike others of the same sex. Yes, they can sometimes overcome this and get along, but their genetics often dictates that they don't get along. That's the reality of fighting breeds. I met the sweetest Akita you could imagine once. He lived with other dogs, a male Akita included, and he was fine. But one day someone's messed up ACD picked a fight with him and he sent the dog to the vet. He's big and powerful and takes things seriously. Despite being lovely and getting along fine with most dogs, he still has the capacity to seriously injure a dog just because he's an Akita, and that's exactly what he did to the ACD.

Secondly, dogs are dogs and breed and animals, but they are also individuals, and some individuals just hate each other. Just like some people grate on me and always get me on the defensive just by being themselves, some dogs just don't gel. When fights are escalating to the point where vet visits are required, I think you can be pretty confident that it's a case of two dogs just hating each other. I kid you not, the feud won't end until one of them is dead. The more they fight, the more their history of fighting will dictate that they fight more. Even if you get them to a point where they haven't fought in years, there's still the likelihood that one day when you're least expecting it, the nightmare will start all over again. I've seen it, and it was between my corgi and a whippet cross, two breeds you would not expect to get into such a feud at all. The more they fought, though, the worse it got. It's a very scary place to be. If I had dogs again that were fighting so seriously, I would never ever trust them together for the rest of their lives, regardless of how they might improve under management or training or whatever. It's just not worth it.

Corvus - I couldn't have stated it any better than you have. It's so difficult to explain to someone who doesn't understand that it's not as simple as better leadership or fulfilling their needs or anything else that you can pinpoint and work on. The behaviorist we met with explained it much like you did. Some dogs don't like each other and others, like ours, like each other a little, sometimes, but other days, they just don't get along.  If I knew why or what might trigger an attack, I'd be able to manage them together, but I've been surprised too many times.  We've gone relatively long periods of time with no problems and you start to let your guard down and then for no apparent reason, they're locked in a fight. After one particularly bad fight when my husband wasn't nearby to help me separate them and Sassy's lower lip was severely torn, I said I'd never be alone with them together again and I haven't.  It's just not worth the risk.

espencer

mudpuppy

And pretending that Akitas can be integrated into any multi-dog household if only you demonstrate enough leadership is downright irresponsible.

 

previously deleted content My experience tells me actually totally the opposite of what you are saying, previously deleted content

With all due respect, I think that you should get a few aggressive Akitas and try integrating them into your own pack before you give advice to very experienced dog people on the subject of truly aggressive dogs that are drawing blood on their packmates.  How many dogs have you dealt with that have chosen to continue an adversarial relationship to this extent?  Defending the philosophy of a TV personality, because we all know that is what you are doing here, should not be done to the detriment of anyone with as serious a problem as this.  Please don't disregard the show's caveat - don't try this at home, and get a local professional to deal with your dog.  This is a situation where I would strongly suggest total separation of the combatants, and a consultation with a Ph.D. or veterinarian/behaviorist.

 Cathy, and the OP, it's really tough, isn't it? When it happened to us, there was no real reason. The professional we got in chalked up a number of things that probably contributed to everything going horribly wrong, but by then it was too late. The dogs were feuding intently and while we became experts at diving in a split second before all hell broke loose and averting disaster, if we were ever too far away to get there, Penny ended up at the vets getting stitches. When she nearly lost an eye and my mother got bitten trying to break them up, we faced the tragic truth that if we kept on with them, it could cost Penny her life, not to mention someone's fingers. And these were small dogs! I'd hate to be relying on intervening with a dog Shar-pei or Akita sized.

If it's anything like our experience, there's probably nothing missing, nothing you can 'fix' to make them get along. You can't tell a dog intent on killing its nemesis to hold up and respect the house rules. They don't hear you. I think towards the end with Penny and the whippet, Penny had started to realise that she didn't want to get into fights with that dog and may have been open to direction from us, but by then she was scared and all her attention was on defending herself. We could never reach the other dog when she snapped, though. There's nothing worse than seeing your dog hanging from the jaws of your other dog and having the stuffing shaken out of them. It will haunt me for the rest of my days, and that's why I will never have a rescue dog I haven't raised from a puppy and I will never have two dogs the same sex and comparable size. Never. I really hope this case does not end in tears, and it would be fantastic if it wasn't as serious as what other people have experienced, but I can't say my hopes are high. It's certainly unusual for dogs to seriously hurt one another, and I think once that threshold is crossed with two dogs that live together, you've got permanent trouble.

Everyone who deals with many animals knows that sometimes they just don't get along. There is nothing lacking in their lives, they are just being normal. Sweet fantasies about packs ruled lovingly by stern but fair father figures are just that, human fantasies. If these dogs were allowed total freedom, they would probably both choose to live far from each other.

How many human families do you know of where certain members can't stand each other? The difference being we have the freedom to not-live in the same household, and your dogs don't.

And pretending that Akitas can be integrated into any multi-dog household if only you demonstrate enough leadership is downright irresponsible.

Absolutely agree 100%. I thought that I could do this despite warnings from people on this very forum. I failed miserably and my dogs suffered for it. Attempting to "force" an Akita to get along with 5 other dogs was the stupidest thing I've ever done.

And how can you be THAT sure if according to you, you have never practice that ideology? My experience tells me actually totally the opposite of what you are saying, i think you are really misinformed of what really leadership offers and involves

espencer, you sure do have a very strong opinion on dealing with a VERY unusual breed of dog that you have no first hand experience with.

I've said it a million times, and so have other people here with akita experience: Akitas are not like other dogs. Period. They are not like other "dominant" breeds either. I have experience with "dominant" breeds. I have an American Bulldog mix, a Pit Bull, a Pit/Hound mix, and a Great Pyrenees. I think it's safe to say that all of those breeds could be defined as "dominant." I have been successful with all of these dogs in training them, living with them, and being a good "leader."

I was not successful with my Akita. The same philosphies that I applied to my other dogs that worked so well on them did NOT work on my akita. They are smarter than other dogs. They are capable of mental leaps that, if I were to explain them, would get me laughed out of here and accused of anthropomorphization- by all except those with experience with Akitas and other primitive breeds. I would liken their intelligence levels as closer to that of a wolf than a dog. You CANNOT fool an akita. Describing an Akita as "dominant" is oversimplification to the extreme and the understatement of the universe.

Comparing an Akita to a Pit bull is completely apples and oranges. There just is no comparison there- and having owned both breeds, I feel that I am qualified to make that statement. Pit bulls are not as intelligent as Akitas and do not have the same level of problem solving abilities. they do not plan and plot like Akitas do. Akitas remember- sometimes for years- and they never, ever, ever forget what they consider to be a slight against them. Again...they are far, far more intelligent than most dogs. All of the "leadership skills" in the world will not force an Akita to respect you. One tiny little unnoticeable-to-you-screw up is ALL it takes with an Akita- and you are no longer the leader. Ever. You are done in their eyes.

Pit bulls are sweet, happy, goofy dogs. They inherently want to please. They are highly trainable and in my experience, very obedient. They do not try to outhink you like an akita will, and as long as you are a decent leader, they will respect you and do whatever you ask. I think the differences between pit bull and Akitas can be summed up in these two examples:

Ogre the akita decides he wants to kill chickens. We install an electric fence and train him to it. He systematically tests it until he finds a spot with a weak charge and jumps it and then kill chickens. We work on reinforcing his previous training to leave livestock alone. As a result he is perfectly obedient as long as our eyes are on him. We turn our back for 3 seconds and he kills chickens again. All of the training in the world results only in him leaving the chickens while we are watching. So, we contain him. He then spends 24/7 trying to chew, dig, claw, and climb his way out of whatever we have him in. He destroys a $150 metal dog crate. He attempts to jump through a window. He wears his nails down to bloody stumps trying to dig out of his concrete bottomed kennel. He chews through an industrial cable tie-out. He chews through a bedroom door, peels back a sheet of metal, and jumps a chainlink gate to get to some pet rats in a bedroom. A behaviorist uses a shock collar on him which results in him mistrusting everyone...as he continues to kill chickens. He will not stop, he doesn't care, and this is literally all he thinks about until we ultimately give up on him and find him a home where there are no small animals for him to worry about.

Example 2:

Culley the pit bull decides he wants to kill chickens. We say, "Culley. Leave it." Culley forgets about the chickens, has a nap, and never looks at a chickens again, because we told him not to. Problem solved.

I think that PERFECTLY illustrates the differences between pit bulls and Akitas. Once an Akita decides to do something, he's going to do it- and he isn't going to stop to please you no matter how much of a great "leader" you are. For an akita to stop worrying about fighting another dog, the only solution is to remove one of the dogs. Period. I was given this same advice just a few months ago and I refused to take it. I was wrong. Even if you manage to keep them seperated for years...the Akita will not forget. And eventually, you WILL slip up- it may be tomorrow, it may be 7 years down the road- and the Akita will find a way to fight that dog. I guarantee it.

And above all, there is the issue of the dog's happiness. I got to the point where I was keeping Ogre seperated from all of my other animals. And guess what? He was miserable. An Akita will NOT forget that an animal it hates is still in the household and it will NOT get over it. He will think about nothing else, and his entire existance will have to be micromanaged and supervised and he can never, ever be trusted. Ogre was miserable in my home, even after I got him to the point where he never had to see any other animals. He knew they were there. To me, the happiness of the animals need to be considered- if a dog who hates other dogs would be happier in a home with no dogs, I think it should go to one. FORCING dogs to tolerate each other just so you can have the satisfaction of being "successful" and "right" and a "good leader" is, IMO, dumb. I know, because I tried to do it. Forcing the dog to "submit" and accept living conditions that it absolutely hates because "you're the leader and you say so" is, IMO, silly and wrong. The dog may get used to it, and may accept the situation, but it will never be as happy as it would be in a home where none of this was even an issue.

"Well you cant ignore hundreds of years of selective breeding but the were dogs first THOUSANDS of years before that, you dont need to "force" anybody, you need to see whats what they need, why they are turning against members of their OWN "pack", are their needs fulfilled? are the rules well established in the pack? can they get away with being rude sometimes?"

pariah village dogs and feral dogs don't actually seem to form true "packs". They form loosely associated groups organized around breeding pairs. They don't have true  "leaders". If any disputes broke out the dogs would simply avoid each other.

IMO that "very experienced dog people" has no idea of what she is talking about, "experienced" is the last word that comes into my mind

Espencer...*edited by me* I would like for you to let me know exactly who you directed this comment towards?

espencer

Did i say thats the ONE AND ONLY thing is needed here? can anybody quote me where i said that? because i just cant find it myself, somebody here is having her own thread running inside her head

no you did not say that was all that was needed, neither did I, content deleted, baiting