Akita vs. Shar Pei (Aggressive / Fighting)

Hi there, I answered your blog post...good to see you here. As I stated there, you haev a hard situation. Akitas are not known to get along with dogs of the same sex....neutered or not. It's just a breed trait...it's part of what the breed "is". Dogs that do get along with others are considered atypical. It is even in the breed standard "Aggressive towards other dogs".

Now your boy does NOT look like a mix to me. He looks all Akita. I owned them for a while before Beagles and I consider myself very familiar with their temperament. Not an expert...just experienced.

Dog whispering only goes so far, Akitas are a thinking breed...they do remember issues with particular dogs for a long time...a lifetime sometimes. Some bide their time until they can wreak havoc.

IMO your options right now are management or rehoming.

Management being a completely secure separate area for the dogs to "be" and rotating them in the house and yard otherwise...for life, no contact. Doable...but a bit stressful....but many multi Akita homes live this way as a matter of course and you do get used to it.

Rehoming is best done thru a reputable rescue. PM me if you need links. I also have a link to a WONDERFUL forum specific to Akitas that may have  input for you...PM me if you want the link. There is a woman on there with 6 Akitas living together but 2 of her boys recently had to be separated due to fighting...all hers are s/neutered. She'd be great for you to consult with.

Anyhow...IMO the issue is a breed not meant to be in a multidog same sex household..and another breed also somewhat known to be picky about dogs they like...that being Shar Pei.

this has nothing to do with you "being the leader". The leader of a dog pack really doesn't care about squabbles between subordinates. What you have is a young Akita who is challenging Rufus' status by not-submitting to Rufus's attacks. Rufus is going to end up dead. Akitas and Shar-Peis are notorious for not tolerating other dogs of the same sex. Your options are complete separation at all times, rehome one of the dogs, or totally crush their spirits so they are too scared of you to do anything without strict orders.

mudpuppy

this has nothing to do with you "being the leader". The leader of a dog pack really doesn't care about squabbles between subordinates. What you have is a young Akita who is challenging Rufus' status by not-submitting to Rufus's attacks. Rufus is going to end up dead. Akitas and Shar-Peis are notorious for not tolerating other dogs of the same sex. Your options are complete separation at all times, rehome one of the dogs, or totally crush their spirits so they are too scared of you to do anything without strict orders.

 Mudpuppy

 I respectfully disagree. I know of a gentleman who breeds Dogo's. I have seen 10-12 Dogos all lined up in a row eating from separate dishes. Intact males and females sit quietly while he prepares their food. They begin eating when he tells them it is okay to eat. They have their own room in the house and each has his own crate. They sleep in the crates with the doors open. No dog is permitted to go into anyone else's crate. Dogo males and females tend to be very dominant and it is recommended that you do not have two males or two females as they squabble. The gentleman in question abides by leadership principles. His dogs are in no way afraid of him and yet because he is clearly the leader of the household he is able to run a house full of dominant type dogs that are know for squabbling.

 I also know of numerous Dogo owners that have multiple dominant dogs living in a pack and because of the strong leadership of the owners they live with relatively few issues.

 One should also take note that the celebrity dog man who shall remain nameless has a large pack of dogs, many known for their breed’s dog aggression and many rescued from the “sport” of dog fighting themselves, which function well together with few squabbles.

 Also note other trainers that keep large groups of dogs such as Fennell’s pack of GSD’d (males and females, intact) in peace.

 It is possible to live in peace with dominant breeds such as the Akita along with other dogs. It takes a lot of work and effort and diligence and consistency. But it can be done if you want it to work bad enough. It will require more than just tossing out a treat to divert improper behavour.You may need to separate dogs when you are not home, but when you are home there is no reason that they cannot all get along in peace if you insist that they do so. It is possible to be a strong leader for your dogs and to accomplish this without “scaring” your dogs into behaving. Fear and brutishness have nothing to do with being in charge.

 I am doing it right now with a very dominant Dogo. He does not fear me. He respects me. Some people will just never be able to understand the concept.

dg....please don't take this the wrong way.

But Akitas are not Dogos, Akitas are not PB's...they require separation once they begin fighting. Even the Akita X on Cesar's show was not helped....the owner was here, at this forum and shared with me that they continued to have issues even after changes had been made.

For every one person like the woman I told the OP about...who CAN...10 cannot, and dogs get hurt, people get bitten...and sometimes, dogs die. Please if we are going to err...I suggest we err on the side of less bloodshed and potential heartbreak.

there is no harm in being conservative, and suggesting management and separation...and just about any person who breeds Akitas or has experience with them will tell you...they must be managed extremely carefully once they have an issue with a particular dog.  I really, reaaaally think we need to be careful what we suggest here.

Gina, You make some great points.  I agree with EVERYTHING you said about the Akitas-having been owned by one myself.

 Shar-Peis, I know a little about because one of my best friends bred them for over 20 years.  They generally do NOT give warnings before they attack, they were bred for dog fighting, and the stock that we have here in the US is largely from cast-offs in China that either had less than desirable temperments or were losers in the fight ring.  Thus the majority of Sharpei in the US do not have the best of background genetics.

 
Putting these two breeds together should raise cautionary flags in all cases and bright red "danger, danger, danger" flags in some cases.  Separation will be the key in this particular case.  The main reason is that both of these dogs can and will wait for the one opportunity when your attention is drawn away and then they'll do what they have been doing.  You could supervise 100% and that one time the phone rings and you can't find it...Bang!  It happens.

rwbeagles

dg....please don't take this the wrong way.

 I havent.

rwbeagles

But Akitas are not Dogos, Akitas are not PB's...they require separation once they begin fighting.

 I realize the breeds are different, yet they are all a more dominant breed that tends to not tolerate other dominant dogs of the same sex. They both tend to be bullies when around other dogs and they both tend to be willing to throw down with any other dog that gives them the wrong look or acts as if it might want to be dominant. And for the record Dogo's would also require seperation once they have begun fighting. (seperation when no humans are present).

rwbeagles

there is no harm in being conservative, and suggesting management and separation...and just about any person who breeds Akitas or has experience with them will tell you...they must be managed extremely carefully once they have an issue with a particular dog.  I really, reaaaally think we need to be careful what we suggest here.

  I did not suggest that the person ignore this behavior and do nothing, I only pointed out that it is possible to live in peace with dominant dogs.  I do disagree when the advice is "give up all hope and throw in the towel”. And telling someone that leadership is meaningless (especially when they own an Akita) is almost irresponsible.

  I am not suggesting the person should not be careful, nor I am suggesting that they should not seek professional assistance. But I do firmly believe that there is always hope if you want it bad enough and are willing to put in the effort. It may not work, it doesn’t always. A lot of success with dogs like this in packs is due to how they are raised from day one. But it is always worthwhile to have hope and to try before advocating throwing in the towel.

 Read some of the Akita breeders sites, the Akita Rescue of America's site and it is very interseting that they all talk about pack leadership and pack priniciples and how important they are in dealing with Akitas.

Millsan

Cesar will say that I have created 2 separate "packs" but I can't keep letting them hurt each other.

I agree that one can SOMETIMES train a group of dogs to live quietly and peacefully together-- we do this at my household (and it has NOTHING to do with leadership and lots to do with training). However, if two dogs decide they hate each other to the point of inflicting serious injuries on each other, there is not much one can do; perhaps a training program initiated before the fights began may have prevented the problem, perhaps not.

Telling people that all they have to do is "be more of a leader" isn't going to save Rufus's life.

And pretending that Akitas can be integrated into any multi-dog household if only you demonstrate enough leadership is downright irresponsible.

dgriego

I realize the breeds are different, yet they are all a more dominant breed that tends to not tolerate other dominant dogs of the same sex.

Thing is, that Akitas do not fight to make a point or define their dominance....they fight until it is OVER. I am not sure you are understanding.

Email those breeders and rescue's dg....ask them if they'd place a male Akita in a household with other male dogs, esp a SharPei, and why...I already know what the answer will be.

100% separation within a household, is NOT throwing in the towel...it is keeping your beloved pets safe and reducing their stress and your own. I am havng a really hard time seeing why ANYONE would say this is not a valid solution.

ETA: I urge the OP...if you are still here to please PLEASE talk with Akita folks about this. They and only they know what you are potentially dealing with. They've been there, done that...and have actual hands on experience with the breed. Again I have great resources for said lists/people if you want them...PM me.

Hi Everyone,

 Thanks so much for all your feedback.  I agree with many of the things that have been said and would like to clarify and expand on a few points.  Giving up and throwing in the towel isn't even an option for me.  My dogs are my children and I will do whatever is necessary to keep them safe.  When I adopted Mikko from the Humane Society, he was a special adoption because of his breed.  We had to attend a special obedience class that taught me about the Akita breed, when they come in to maturity, and how important it was that I be consistent and firm with him.  I do believe all 3 of them respect me and do not fear me (at least not most of the time).  They are very well-mannered (no barking, not scared of thunder/lightening, no chewing, etc...).  We really enjoy our walks every morning.  There is never an issue when we walk -- Rufus and Mikko could share a leash and all would be fine. 

I agree with some of the issues Xerxes mentioned.  Although Rufus is more obvious about his displeasure than Mikko is and I can sense when Rufus is unhappy and unsettled.  I feel Mikko strikes without warning -- which is the scary part.  Once we came back from a really long walk and we were all exhausted.  All 3 dogs ran downstairs and drank water.  I was getting ice out of the refrigerator dispenser as they came back upstairs....still panting and exhausted...and all of sudden Rufus took off at Mikko's throat and then Mikko was on top of Rufus within seconds.  Rufus has had his ear sliced in half, bitten through and his head gashed open that required over a dozen stitches. 

For the last two fights, I have literally grabbed Mikko by the scruff of the neck (all 100 pounds) and physically lifted him off Rufus who is laying flat on his back under Mikko.  Mikko puts up NO resistence whatsoever, but Rufus will keep charging and circling and will continue to try to attack Mikko unless I block him.  Then, when I put him in his cage, his adrenaline is still taking over and he is like a wild dog -- lunging at the cage and foaming at the mouth.  It's a very scary sight as he is unrecognizable and completely out of control.

I know that dogs have their own silent language and I'm sure I am missing some of it.  Even though I see Rufus charging (instigating), perhaps Mikko is stalking or hovering or following after Rufus and I'm not correcting this behavior.  In any case, this is why I need someone objective to come in and point out these oversights and tell me when / how to correct them.

Right now I have child gates up throughout my house that keeps Mikko and Rufus separated.  Mikko can open and also jump the gates so I never leave them unsupervised.  Rufus is in his cage during the day which I think he enjoys since he has a nice soft cushion to support his old bones.

In any case, I really appreciate all the feedback and advice.  I know that we can all share our experiences and learn from them together.

I have had wonderful Akitas that had no issue with other dogs who respected their space (ie no leash puling or overt aggro behaviors). The interesting issue is...that something about the breed...IMO their bearing....sends totally "challenging" vibes to other dogs...no matter what the Akita itself is like. Totally normal sweet Labradors have FLIPPED OUT upon seeing my dog...their owners are usually just aghast....it's really suprising to them.

Akitas have an upright carried tail...a dignity....erect forward pointed ears...large size...forward stance/confidence that really does seem to trigger off some other dogs...even when the Akita is completely ignoring them. THAT may be your issue.

Watch your Akitas whiskers...they bristle a bit forward many times when they are thinking about doing something. The air around them just changes...you can feel it when you live with them long enough. One extra furrow in the brow, whiskers, stare...etc Akitas are so subtle...they do give sign...but man it can be hard to catch!

keep them completely separated and get a behaviorist to come in and watch, is all I can suggest.

 Every breed description of akitas warns strongly against ever keeping them with a dog of the same sex, or keeping them with cats. My akita-fancier friend cringes at the idea of even trying to keep a male akita in a household with another male dog. Some pit bulls may aggress at strange dogs, but some don't, and most are fine with their household dogs. Akitas generally aren't.

I have a similar situation in my home in terms of the aggression happening in a flash with what appears to be no outward signs, so I know how frightening and frustrating this can be. I have 2 females, a lab/shar pei who is 12 and a lab who is about 8ish. Like your dogs, they can seem to get along fine at times but then something unseen can set off an attack.  We've lived with this situation for about 6 yrs now and after the 1st few fights, we did have an evaluation done by a behaviorist and she gave us enough information and hope to move forward. We keep them separated at all times unless supervised, and even then, only if my husband is home. I'd never be able to break up a fight on my own. I won't say it's an ideal situation, but we've made it work. I've had others tell me that it's an issue of training and leadership but unless you actually live with the situation, you can't understand it. My 2 have actually gotten into a fight over a leaf on the ground and it happened in a split second. There was no time to intervene. I'm not sure how leadership or training might help in a situation like that.  Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I understand what you're going thru and I think you're handling it the best way possible.

mudpuppy

I agree that one can SOMETIMES train a group of dogs to live quietly and peacefully together-- we do this at my household (and it has NOTHING to do with leadership and lots to do with training). However, if two dogs decide they hate each other to the point of inflicting serious injuries on each other, there is not much one can do; perhaps a training program initiated before the fights began may have prevented the problem, perhaps not.

Telling people that all they have to do is "be more of a leader" isn't going to save Rufus's life.

And pretending that Akitas can be integrated into any multi-dog household if only you demonstrate enough leadership is downright irresponsible.

Excellent and right to the point mp.