Create, "safe place" or "you cant touch me here"?

Like I said before, Penny's never had a den or crate, but she likes to find somewhere den-like to hide in when there's a thunderstorm. I encourage that behaviour because if she's safe in a 'den', she's not tearing around the house in hysterics barking at the noise. She can go in there and I know she's safe from herself and I can proceed to ignore her.

Otherwise, she actually seems to dislike den-like kennels and won't use one if there's sufficient shelter by the back door. Our other two dogs love their den-like kennels, though. Pyry sometimes goes in frontways with his bone so he can block any of the other dogs with his butt from coming in and looking at his bone. I've seen Jill do similar things.

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espencer has come back and said that it was NOT his intention for this thread to be about CM...that it was more an "in general" crate question. 
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And to answer your question, YES, I have replaced crates with cushy beds.  They whined and pouted and did NOT sleep well because they all wanted the privacy of their own "room".  And anyone with an OUNCE of common sense does NOT go away and leave six german shepherds loose in the house....for many reasons including THEIR own safety.

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2nd warning!

Stick to the topic and ONLY the topic or you will find yourself on a three day sit out

Wow, I don't know what was said and I don't think I want to know either.
 
I know that everyone is under a bit of pressure and wants to be heard and acknowledged for their opinions.  Something I learned a very long time ago was that rather than yell during an argument, I will slowly start lowering the tone of my voice.  By the end of the debate, my opponent has to listen carefully to my choice of words.  In those quiet moments there is careful listening and calmness. 
 
I think we can apply that to this forum and to this thread.  Or perhaps we can just self edit.  The last topic of discussion on this thread was about wild canids and dens- as it refers to the OP.  Is the crate an acceptable substitute for a den?  Is it a safe-zone?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


You asked the question, I'll do my best to answer it.

In the wild, a dog feels safe.  It has trust amongst the pack, and knows that the territory is well defended.  Usually wild canids are at the top, or near the top of the food chain and they do not have fear of predation.  Therefore they feel that they are free to fight or take flight.

Ok...that sounds somewhat...reasonable.

In our homes, the canids are, for the most part not wild.  They are NOT at the top of the food chain and sometimes, when owners don't know what they are doing, there are HUGE trust issues.  The dog needs to know that there is a "safe zone" into which it can retreat.

That...is just sad, that a dog feels the need to retreat to it's crate...because the *humans* don't know what they're doing. Therefore the dog is actually running and hiding from those he/she should trust. Which is a good way to create a unstable dog.

In the wild a canid can communicate, quite clearly with the pack through body language and pheremone secretion and other actions.  A wild canid can tell another in it's pack to "Back off Jack" and it's clearly understood.

Excellent observation.

In our homes we don't speak canine sign language, nor do we have noses keen enough to understand what is trying to be said.  In our home the dog can tell us "back off jack" and we misread the entire sequence and are on the phones with a behaviorist or seeking guidance elsewhere, or at the extreme we decided that this dog needs a shock collar because "no dog is gonna tell me not to touch him."

Again this is a dog that is not trusting it's humans, and to me...it's sad that a dog should feel the need to escape from it's human pack. Perhaps the humans should try and learn more about dogs...before bringing one home.

Most  wild canids will retreat to a den when they are gravely ill.  If a canid did not do this, depending upon the scarcity of food, that injured animal could become the target of pack designed to oust it from the pack.  (Weakness amongst predators equals starvation which equals -therefore weakness is bad.)  Don't quote me stories of wolf packs taking care of the blind matriarch or the broken legged beta dog- I didn't say ALL cases, I said most cases.  I know the odd heartwarming stories are true, I don't know the justification of them though.  I know that life in a wolfpack or wild dog pack is NOT all warm and fuzzy.

I can't totally agree with the first part...however...I actually seen wolves care for their sick or injured, but it is rare at best. Just recently I saw a study were a seven year old male wolf (the pack leader) was attacked and killed by his two year old daughter...in a moment of his appearing weak. Then then took over as pack leader.

When someone says that their dog likes their crate I believe them.  Especially in multi dog families.  Most of us don't have a 25 square mile yard.  For our dogs to get "alone time" they have to retreat to their crates, or a seperate room.  The crates then become the "den" or the "palace of tranquility" if you're a superman fan.

I also believe some people when they say "their dogs like their crate" My question is...why? I have owned multiple dogs in the past, and I have worked with multiple dogs as well. My observations are...well ajusted dogs while needing a little peace sometimes can do so by simply going and laying down in their spot, they've no need to...hide.

I've enjoyed your thoughts on this subject.
Thanks

The crate also serves, if it's covered, as an area of shade, cover, concealment.  The dog might feel like it's in it's whelping box or den.

These are just suggestions and my opinions.

I'm also wondering how the domestic dog's paedomorphism (never growing out of what in a wolf would be considered puppy behavior) plays into their denning. Wolves may not normally den as adults, but wolves also don't play once they become adults.

ORIGINAL: glenmar


And to answer your question, YES, I have replaced crates with cushy beds.  They whined and pouted and did NOT sleep well because they all wanted the privacy of their own "room".  And anyone with an OUNCE of common sense does NOT go away and leave six german shepherds loose in the house....for many reasons including THEIR own safety.

How is "And anyone with an OUNCE of common sense does NOT" anyless of an attack than what I've been *accused* of?

That aside...I'll tell you this, I've left a multiple mix of powerful (well ajusted) dogs alone A LOT and had no issues. NOT ONE. So what's the problem? 

I apologize, I wasn't trying, nor did I think I was attacking anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. If it is not...ok to challenge someone on the comments they make, I will try and refrain from doing so.

As far as dogs digging holes to lay in goes... most dogs do this for a nice place to lay down. You will notice most dogs do it when it's hot outside and they're trying to get to cooler dirt. And a small hole...isn't actually like...a den. IMO.

Anyone see the documentary or read the book, Wolves at Our Door?  That was interesting.  Reading the book however included a lot of other information.  Some of it I wish I didn't have to know.  You just fall in love with these beautiful creatures, that share many characteristics of dogs (reminding me a lot of my huskies) and yet they are so different, in a very beautifully wild way.

How is "And anyone with an OUNCE of common sense does NOT" anyless of an attack than what I've been *accused* of? My apologies if you felt that was directed at you.  It was not, rather it was general.
 
I have major concerns about fire safety when I leave my home.  I am not concerned with contents...that's just stuff...but I do want my animals saved and I can only imagine what their reactions might be to a bunch of firefighters breaking into house in their strange atire.  When crated, they can be pulled to safety without any concern of danger to either the dogs OR the firefighters.  And I have an additional phone line installed for my fire alarm so that help will arrive promptly when I am away.
 
That aside...I'll tell you this, I've left a multiple mix of powerful (well ajusted) dogs alone A LOT and had no issues. NOT ONE. So what's the problem?  Apparently I just don't have your training abilities.  I am not a trainer and have never claimed to be.  Aside from the half arsed classes availabe here, I train my dogs myself, and I would kind of have thot that the fact that FIVE of them have earned their CGC's would attest that I'm doing ok, but I guess not.

 

In my old house, my dog made my bedroom closet his den. He would just go in there sometimes to lay down so I put his dog bed in there.  I think some dogs just like to have a dark place to rest  in every once in a while.

FWIW: we actually have dog beds inside our crates.

amelia will go in her crate if she is tired. she likes to sleep in their. she has the option of sleeping on the furniture or on dog beds outside the crate, but she chooses the crate.

i think how much, how often, and for what length of time a person uses a crate is an individual choice (assuming you arent leaving your dog in there 24/7).[sm=2cents.gif]