Create, "safe place" or "you cant touch me here"?

EVERYONE, Back to your corners or we'll be speaking more in depth privately.
 
This is enough and the warnings are coming.
 
Get back on topic or this too will get closed.
 
You're really limiting the "teaching" when your bickering

ORIGINAL: espencer

So, correcting or not correcting inside the create? regardless from the example

 
I do not believe in corrections inside the crate, with the exception being barking inside the crate. 

ORIGINAL: wisewilddog

Here's a question...what breed of wild canines that live in packs...use dens as adults...beyond raising their young? When that question is answered correctly, I have a few follow up questions. The question is not directed at any one person...it's just an open question? And it does have something to do with the question of crates.

 
I believe that Wild African Dogs always have dens, this is because they seem to always have young-anywhere from brand new pups to yearlings. 
 
Coyotes have been known to den, especially in cold weather.  Though they don't generally pack, some coyotes will.  I think they break all the "dog" rules though for whatever reason.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

I do not believe in corrections inside the crate, with the exception being barking inside the crate. 

 
And how do you do that?

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

ORIGINAL: espencer

He was working on an aggressive dog, the dog was on the create, outside the house, and he was having a raquet in front of the dog to make him bite the raquet and release all the bad energy

so the dog was "on" the crate and not "in" the crate? just asking so i can make sure i understand the scenario.

what was cm trying to accomplish? making him bite the raquet? or was it something else?

maybe it would be better if only people who had seen the episode commented. [sm=2cents.gif]

I saw the show - at one point the dog was *in* the crate, which did not have a door, but he was in it nevertheless. 

Can we stop talking about the show? I don't really care why we're discussing this, but as far as I'm concerned it has nothing very much to do with CM right now and it'd be nice if we could keep it that way.

I'm not real sure about the wild canids thing. I'm pretty confident foxes den during the winter months when they live in cold climates, and I expect desert foxes den year 'round to avoid the heat. Do foxes count as wild canids?

When Penny is frightened of fireworks or thunder, she most certainly 'dens'. She finds the smallest, darkest place she can, preferably with 3 walls and a low ceiling. It's the only time she does that, though. She doesn't have a crate. Maybe she should have one for thunderstorms.

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So, for the record, I think it was wrong, and did nothing to solve the overriding problem that ACD has, and, in fact, may have set the dog up to fail. JMHO

For the record...just what was wrong about it? Why didn't you also state how you would have approached that dog? As far as it not solving the "problem"...how  would you explain the fact that the same person who was once being attacked by the dog...can now approach the house without being attacked. And the dog should...fail...at attacking guest. So again...how would "you" have handled the situation?

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


I believe that Wild African Dogs always have dens, this is because they seem to always have young-anywhere from brand new pups to yearlings. 

Coyotes have been known to den, especially in cold weather.  Though they don't generally pack, some coyotes will.  I think they break all the "dog" rules though for whatever reason.

Good answers! Most pack canines do not den once they become adults. they mostly use dens for a safe place for pups or to avoid bad weather.

So my question becomes this...why would a dog feel like it needs a "safe place" in it's own home? What does it need to be safe from? And for those of you who say your dogs like the crate...have you ever removed tried removing the crate and putting a bed in it's place to see if the dog liked it just as much.

Opps. LOL

I think it would be better to train the family/owners of the dog!

 
"I rehabilitate dogs. I train people."
 

   So my question becomes this...why would a dog feel like it needs a "safe place" in it's own home? What does it need to be safe from? And for those of you who say your dogs like the crate...have you ever removed tried removing the crate and putting a bed in it's place to see if the dog liked it just as much. 

You asked the question, I'll do my best to answer it.

In the wild, a dog feels safe.  It has trust amongst the pack, and knows that the territory is well defended.  Usually wild canids are at the top, or near the top of the food chain and they do not have fear of predation.  Therefore they feel that they are free to fight or take flight.

In our homes, the canids are, for the most part not wild.  They are NOT at the top of the food chain and sometimes, when owners don't know what they are doing, there are HUGE trust issues.  The dog needs to know that there is a "safe zone" into which it can retreat.

In the wild a canid can communicate, quite clearly with the pack through body language and pheremone secretion and other actions.  A wild canid can tell another in it's pack to "Back off Jack" and it's clearly understood.

In our homes we don't speak canine sign language, nor do we have noses keen enough to understand what is trying to be said.  In our home the dog can tell us "back off jack" and we misread the entire sequence and are on the phones with a behaviorist or seeking guidance elsewhere, or at the extreme we decided that this dog needs a shock collar because "no dog is gonna tell me not to touch him."

Most  wild canids will retreat to a den when they are gravely ill.  If a canid did not do this, depending upon the scarcity of food, that injured animal could become the target of pack designed to oust it from the pack.  (Weakness amongst predators equals starvation which equals -therefore weakness is bad.)  Don't quote me stories of wolf packs taking care of the blind matriarch or the broken legged beta dog- I didn't say ALL cases, I said most cases.  I know the odd heartwarming stories are true, I don't know the justification of them though.  I know that life in a wolfpack or wild dog pack is NOT all warm and fuzzy.

When someone says that their dog likes their crate I believe them.  Especially in multi dog families.  Most of us don't have a 25 square mile yard.  For our dogs to get "alone time" they have to retreat to their crates, or a seperate room.  The crates then become the "den" or the "palace of tranquility" if you're a superman fan. 

The crate also serves, if it's covered, as an area of shade, cover, concealment.  The dog might feel like it's in it's whelping box or den.

These are just suggestions and my opinions.

I seem to recall at one point reading a book about a woman who had a fairly large pack of dogs (normal domestic dogs, not hybrids or wolfdogs) and also a really large, but fenced and protected, swath of land. So she decided to let the dogs be dogs outside primarily, and observe what they did in their dealings with one another without any human intervention.
 
And I do recall that she reported that several of them dug dens for themselves in hillsides, to hang out in. I've seen Conrad similarily dig himself a fairly deep hole, deep enough that when he's in it he's only just peeping out over the edge.  These holes were totally his spots and he loved to lay in there and observe the world without being observed himself. His very favorite was one he dug for himself that was also under a ceder tree with low-hanging branches.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I seem to recall at one point reading a book about a woman who had a fairly large pack of dogs (normal domestic dogs, not hybrids or wolfdogs) and also a really large, but fenced and protected, swath of land. So she decided to let the dogs be dogs outside primarily, and observe what they did in their dealings with one another without any human intervention.

Yes, I remember reading that book years ago. I think it was called "the hidden life of dogs". It was a good read. []

With regard to the op's initial quesiton, I personally would not correct my dog in his crate.

Excellent answer, Xerxes.
 
I'm not sure how Shadow was potty-trained. When he was given to us, his worldy possessions were the 3 foot lead, a flat buckle collar, little bitty food and water bowls not suitable for a (at the time) 52 lb dog at 24 inches tall, and his purchase papers. So, he may not have been crate-trained. Anyway, I have for him outside an extra large dog house lined with cedar chips (for my own piece of mind so that he can get out of the wind, if necessary) and he doesn't hardly bother with it, that I notice. He will still be by the double gate watching for me to come home. He digs to bury stuff and he digs to chew on grass roots. He will sometimes gather up a blanket but he hasn't really created a den.

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