Create, "safe place" or "you cant touch me here"?

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Honestly, I don't know how to answer the hypothetical becasue I've never had any misbehaving dog run to their crate so they can misbehave more.  Most of the time when my dogs are "misbehaving" its because they don't understand what I want from them. Running to their crates wouldn't solve that issue for them, so there's no reason why they'd do it.

Barking in a crate isn't usually a matter of a dog just wanting to be a brat in my opinion. And in fact the most common reason for barking or fussing in a crate is because they want your attention. Giving a correction at that time would be extremely counterproductive becasue it's just giving them what they want. Otherwise, it can be due to anxiety, claustrophobia, not enough exercise or not enough mental stimulation. All those problems can be dealt with, but none require meeting out corrections while the dog is crated.

 
Gotcha []

ORIGINAL: dogslife

Was this dog wild ?  All I can think is that these shows are typically sensationalized to draw this interest.  Good or bad interest still makes money.  And although these situations are not something most people encounter in daily living and training!, it derives this kind of controversial debate in a forum.

No the dog wasn't wild. the dogs behavior was out of control. As far as the show being "sensationalized" that's not the case at all. I deal with these types of dogs almost every day, and there's no cameras following me around. Cesar does his...job. the "controversy"...is made by the people talking about him. The sad part is...the people who judge without ever seeing him, or people who believe (for some odd reason) their way is the only way of training. Which...is simply not the case.

I will eventually watch a program.  I do not feel the need to buy a book or tape from a show/trainer that as it has been stated, doesn't want you to try this at home due to liability issues.

Do you suggest he should not run his business professionally?

CM seems to be drowning in issues whenever I read anything about him.  I just do not like to see aggressive means used to train any animal.  Or scare tactics.  I think that if you really want to teach the dog, it will take time and not a show such as this will be able to illustrate it.

Agian..."issues" creatated mostly by people who don't understand what he does. Which is teaching dogs...the way they naturally learn. Don't be;ieve me? Just watch dogs in the wild...minus the humans. If there's one thing I'm sure of (regardless of mans ego) mother nature and dogs...know dogs better than humans. IMPO

A dogs kennel should be a place they can rest in, that does not mean they should be able to misbehave when their in it. Correcting a dog...regardless of it's location is not the problem, correcting the dog wrong is the problem. A "safe place does not mean...a place you can run and hide in after you've tried to attack someone, and it would be dangerous to teach a dog it is.

I'm, curious as to how anyone who doesn't agree with the way Cesar approached a dangerous dog..would have done so? So how about instead of saying his way is wrong, or if your going to say...it's wrong. how about an example of what you would do in that case.

Oh...and edited to add. I only use crates as a tool, once the dog is house trained I've no need for them. From what I've noticed over the years, most dogs prefer a really nice dog bed.

ORIGINAL: espencer

Ok, lets pretend it is his create, then that means the dog can do whatever and then just run into the create because he knows no one will touch him there?  like keep barking for hours? i cant correct the behavior and correct the barking because he is in his "safe place"?

I very much think it depends on the dog, but I don't really forsee a need for such a 'safe place' in the first place. I mean, my wild hare lives in a dog crate when he's not running around the house and I've ALWAYS made an effort to make that his place where he can go and be safe when he's frightened. This was pretty imperative in order to provide for an animal that's naturally very highly strung and easily frightened. I taught my dog she wasn't to go in there and try to prevent people and other animals from cornering him in there if he's frightened. However, I put my hands in there all the time, even when he's frightened. I wanted him to know it was his place where he could be safe, but that doesn't mean I can't ever go in there with him. I like to make the point to him that it's normal for me to mess around in his crate so that he'd be cool with me cleaning it out and that kind of thing. It has worked, but he doesn't like people he doesn't know messing with his crate.

So the point I'm trying to make is that a 'safe place' doesn't necessarily mean a place where you can't even touch your pet. If, and I can't imagine this happening but let's just say, if I had a pup that was never punished in his crate and somehow made the giant mental leap that he couldn't be touched in there and could therefore escape punishment/correction by running into his crate, I would have no compunction over hauling him out by the collar and denying him access to his crate.

Having said that, the only reason I can think of that a dog would hide from you in his crate was that you were heavy handed with the punishment outside the crate. In which case your dog is probably terrified of you and with good reason. Your dog might hide if he knew you were going to drag him off to the vet, but again, no compunction about hauling him out and taking him anyway. What else could you do?

My dog doesn't have a crate or a designated 'safe place', but when there's a thunderstorm she hides under a table or bed somewhere. I usually leave her be, but if I'm going to leave the room and don't want her unsupervised, I coax her out however I can. There are places she can go that I can't reach her very easily and she very, very rarely goes to those places, so I assume she doesn't feel a need to be 'safe' from me.

Disclaimer: Didn't see the show, so I'm responding only to the scenario as posed by espencer.

BTW, espencer, do you mind if I correct your spelling? I'm not having a go at you, just get tingly fingers when I see you writing 'create' instead of 'crate'. If you don't want me to I'll never say another word about your spelling, promise. []

ORIGINAL: corvus

I very much think it depends on the dog, but I don't really forsee a need for such a 'safe place' in the first place. I mean, my wild hare lives in a dog crate when he's not running around the house and I've ALWAYS made an effort to make that his place where he can go and be safe when he's frightened. This was pretty imperative in order to provide for an animal that's naturally very highly strung and easily frightened. I taught my dog she wasn't to go in there and try to prevent people and other animals from cornering him in there if he's frightened. However, I put my hands in there all the time, even when he's frightened. I wanted him to know it was his place where he could be safe, but that doesn't mean I can't ever go in there with him. I like to make the point to him that it's normal for me to mess around in his crate so that he'd be cool with me cleaning it out and that kind of thing. It has worked, but he doesn't like people he doesn't know messing with his crate.

So the point I'm trying to make is that a 'safe place' doesn't necessarily mean a place where you can't even touch your pet. If, and I can't imagine this happening but let's just say, if I had a pup that was never punished in his crate and somehow made the giant mental leap that he couldn't be touched in there and could therefore escape punishment/correction by running into his crate, I would have no compunction over hauling him out by the collar and denying him access to his crate.

Having said that, the only reason I can think of that a dog would hide from you in his crate was that you were heavy handed with the punishment outside the crate. In which case your dog is probably terrified of you and with good reason. Your dog might hide if he knew you were going to drag him off to the vet, but again, no compunction about hauling him out and taking him anyway. What else could you do?

My dog doesn't have a crate or a designated 'safe place', but when there's a thunderstorm she hides under a table or bed somewhere. I usually leave her be, but if I'm going to leave the room and don't want her unsupervised, I coax her out however I can. There are places she can go that I can't reach her very easily and she very, very rarely goes to those places, so I assume she doesn't feel a need to be 'safe' from me.

Disclaimer: Didn't see the show, so I'm responding only to the scenario as posed by espencer.

BTW, espencer, do you mind if I correct your spelling? I'm not having a go at you, just get tingly fingers when I see you writing 'create' instead of 'crate'. If you don't want me to I'll never say another word about your spelling, promise. []

 
Oh ok, i see what you are saying
 
I am sorry for my spelling, i am from Mexico and i still have some mistakes but thanks, if is in good faith i am always whilling to hear what my mistake was []

The answer is no, I would not correct a dog in his safe place. 
 
But this has nothing to do with the Cesar episode.  He was not correcting the dog when he was in his crate.  This scenario doesn#%92t really go with the “safe” place relationship.  In CM#%92s scenario the dog used his coupe as a place he ran to and continued to aggress while feeling safe to do so.
 
This was a dog coupe (make shift at that) out side, not a crate inside and the dog ran there so he “could” continue to aggress and be safe from CM who was dominating this dog by flooding his territory with confidence.  There is a big difference to what us normal dog owners experience as a dog using his safe place for.
 
This is why this tread is confusing, posters who didn#%92t see the show can#%92t answer the question because the scenario is not one most of us would think of as normal safe place usage. 
 

Excellent point and I understand espencer's, as well. The situation is not the same as a dog trained to think of its crate as a safe place. Even so, the dog ran into his crate because CM would not back down from his challenge. So, he was seeking a place safe from this person who would not be intimidated by his aggression. It sounds like he was not punished at all, let alone in the crate. He was being blocked access to continue intimidating a person. That's different than being whipped or punished. I've never heard CM talk about punishment.
 
So, I think the dog did think of its crate as a safe place and he could stay in the and fume about all he wanted but he wasn't going to be allowed to go after humans anymore. That, I call guidelines or boundaries.

As to the original question........my dogs see their crates as their safe place.  However, not one of them snitches something out of the trash and runs to their CRATE to chew on it.....
 
Crates are where we take a nap during the day if mom is busy, get great raw bones to chew on, eat our meals and go "nite nite" (for most of them but the doors aren't latched then) and it's also where they spend their time with frozen kongs when we aren't home.
 
But honestly, I have never seen one of my dogs do something "wrong" and then run to the safety of their crate for its protection......other than maybe bark at one another and then high tail it to the crate.  So maybe the "you can't touch me here" in our house is from the other DOGS, but certainly not from the people.

I'm, curious as to how anyone who doesn't agree with the way Cesar approached a dangerous dog..would have done so? So how about instead of saying his way is wrong, or if your going to say...it's wrong. how about an example of what you would do in that case.

Actually, I did in the other thread.

I had a dog that was aggressive under certain circumstances - if people she wasn't 100% familiar with grabbed her collar, was one of the circumstances. We played flyball, and for warmups she had to be held at the box by a teammate while I ran down the lane to call her to the runback area. She discovered she could scare the person holding her, into letting her go, if she turned and bit their hands. This was a problem until a teammate brought welder's gloves and just held on to her. She nailed him over and over, then finally gave up.

Here's the problem, though. It only worked for him! Each teammate had to go through the same routine, to be able to handle her.

I don't know how I'd correct it - we worked with different methods on this dog until she was placed somewhere where the problem was a non-issue (on a military air base), and never got her 100% reliable. And it only takes one serious bite to spell disaster for such a dog. Trim came within a hair of being put down - it was only the offer of the "safe" job that saved her. Most pet dogs wouldn't have such an option.

I guess that I missed something.  I *thot* that the OP had stated his question in such a way that this was NOT a CM thread?????

I have never seen one of my dogs do something "wrong" and then run to the safety of their crate for its protection......other than maybe bark at one another and then high tail it to the crate. So maybe the "you can't touch me here" in our house is from the other DOGS, but certainly not from the people.

 
Which is why the program is what I would call  abnormal psychology (of dogs: and family).
 
From what people have said throughout this thread indicates a difference in living styles.  Outdoor dog without training of any kind.  It hardly sounds like a pet.  And it hardly sounds like training the dog not to bite is meaning the job is anywhere solved. 
 
Training of the dog is not really the big problem in the big picture. It seems that the whole family is not a good situation for the dog.  I see this more of a problem of the family and their lack of understanding in caring for a pet dog.  The dog is using wild behaviors because it is natural for an animal without any care or training as most people here in this forum would care for this dog. (and from the time you brought him home)
 
 
This family should not have a dog. 

I saw the show.  Even if a crate is outdoors and has no door on it, it is the dog's "safe place".  CM made a grave error in not setting things up so that the dog could not access the crate, rather than have the dog feel unsafe there.  Also, I question whether the dog is now safe with all comers.  I hope the family has enough money to supply all their barbeque guests with a big fat tennis racquet.  Dogs learn contextually - so now, for that dog, if a guest has a tennis racquet, no bite.  But, if they come unarmed, ooh la la chase 'em away.
I echo dogslife's comments, and would never chase a dog into its safe area and frighten it.  It's a temporary fix that, in the long run, makes the dog more fearful, therefore more of a bite risk.
This dog is simply a herder that was never taught not to herd humans.
Better a long line and some "leave it" training, or some training in general, which I did not see evident.  These folks should own an alarm barker, but not a dog that clearly has no idea that it isn't ok to follow through on his own.  Creating more distrust only makes the dog more dangerous, since the owners can't control him, and haven't a clue now that he is still dangerous.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

I saw the show.  Even if a crate is outdoors and has no door on it, it is the dog's "safe place".  CM made a grave error in not setting things up so that the dog could not access the crate, rather than have the dog feel unsafe there.  Also, I question whether the dog is now safe with all comers.  I hope the family has enough money to supply all their barbeque guests with a big fat tennis racquet.  Dogs learn contextually - so now, for that dog, if a guest has a tennis racquet, no bite.  But, if they come unarmed, ooh la la chase 'em away.
I echo dogslife's comments, and would never chase a dog into its safe area and frighten it.  It's a temporary fix that, in the long run, makes the dog more fearful, therefore more of a bite risk.
This dog is simply a herder that was never taught not to herd humans.
Better a long line and some "leave it" training, or some training in general, which I did not see evident.  These folks should own an alarm barker, but not a dog that clearly has no idea that it isn't ok to follow through on his own.  Creating more distrust only makes the dog more dangerous, since the owners can't control him, and haven't a clue now that he is still dangerous.

BTW, I think Glenda had a point.  This clearly was not labeled a CM thread, but, nevertheless, it is, since the question might not have come up other than via the show Monday night.  So, why is it here, and not "there"?   If this was only about dogs and their "safe places", why not stick to that without reference to the show?  See, we positive people now have no place to hide...no safe crate.

In fairness, the "other" place wasn't set up at the time this thread was started.  And even tho the OP is a fan of CM, he avoided the example because it would have MADE this into a CM thread.  And, I'm thinking that it was probably NOT his intention for this to turn into a CM thread.  I'm not being naive, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

This topic comes from another thread and i think it would be good to know what do your think

That is the first sentence of the original post and that "thread" was a CM thread where they were discussing the episode seen Monday night. 

EDITED TO SAY--I don't understand why you posted here Anne when this was clearly about CM at this point even though it was not in his "area".  I'm not saying I don't want to read your information but this is three pages long and clearly about CM and yet you posted here.  WHY???  Of the first three posts two of the three clearly say "show" and "CM".