How Far Are You Willing to Go?

AMEN mudpuppy.  Start with the +R and only go to something aversive if you've absolutely, postively run out of +R options and it becomes an issue of safety.

ORIGINAL: Scout in Canada
Anyway back on topic - if you don't make it clear to your dog that you want him to walk beside you without pulling, all the leash-popping in the world is not going to clarify that. Not only is it confusing for the dog, they have no idea what to expect from you and that can create trust issues.

 
Thats because "leash poping" is not a magical key, if the dog is walking in front of you then you DO NOT pop the leash(of course the dog wont get why you are doing that), leash poping is to redirect attention, not to make the dog do a specific thing like walking next to you, it is not the magical medicine that works for every single situation
 
Leash poping is only confusing you [], if you want your dog to walk next to you then you have to grab the leash closer to the dog and the dog wont pull because the collar is all the way to the top of the neck which avoids that the dog helps himself with his shoulders to pull
 
I'm here to help you to clarify your misunderstandings []

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I can't imagine why any dog should need collar pops or an ecollar to learn how to perform basic on-leash obedience or learn general manners such as sit on command

 
Thats because collar pops are to correct behavior NOT to train dogs, you DONT use collar pops to teach a dog how to sit or how to roll over, etc, you wont wash a car with olive oil because that is not meant for washing but for cooking []
 
I'm glad i also helped you to clarify your misunderstanding on when to use a collar pop []

I'm glad i also helped you to clarify your misunderstanding on when to use a collar pop []
 
And that would be never?  Since there is really never a reason to use a collar pop other than for one's own ego or to satisfy control issues?

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I can't imagine why any dog should need collar pops or an ecollar to learn how to perform basic on-leash obedience or learn general manners such as sit on command

Thats because collar pops are to correct behavior NOT to train dogs, you DONT use collar pops to teach a dog how to sit or how to roll over, etc

Okay, so collar pops are to correct. Correct what? Every behaviour that you're trying to train your dog to perform? If you use choose to use corrections, it's a part of training. I think that if you use a collar pop to 'correct', it has to be obvious to the dog what it's supposed to be doing instead. You said that yourself in the previous post. That's basically the definition of a correction.

You said in your previous post that collar pops are to redirect the dog's attention, but they're also for corrections? It sounds to me like you're confused about the use of collar pops yourself. Personally, I find clicking my fingers or saying "oi" gets my dog's attention every time without me needing to pop the collar so I can tell her what to do next. The only time I can imagine they might have any meaning to a dog is when you're teaching heel, and you've just told us why we shouldn't do it then. I don't hold with collar pops or forcing a dog to walk beside me by shortening the leash purely because I've seen people train dogs to walk perfectly on leash without using things like that, but that's just the way I like to do things. Why use force when you don't need to?

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I'm glad i also helped you to clarify your misunderstanding on when to use a collar pop []

And that would be never?  Since there is really never a reason to use a collar pop other than for one's own ego or to satisfy control issues?

Well thats your own opinion, just because you say it that does not mean is true, i always can say that there is never a reason to use treats to correct behavior but just to make the owner lie to himself thinking he has the "control" of the situation, so when you use treats it is not to satisfy control issues too?

Collar pops have nothing to do with "ego", maybe just you use them when you want to satisfy your own, i dont think that any of the people here that uses that method does it for "ego" purposes, so unless you are talking for personal experience i dont think you can speak for all of us

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I'm glad i also helped you to clarify your misunderstanding on when to use a collar pop []

And that would be never?  Since there is really never a reason to use a collar pop other than for one's own ego or to satisfy control issues?

Well thats your own opinion, just because you say it that does not mean is true, i always can say that there is never a reason to use treats to correct behavior but just to make the owner lie to himself thinking he has the "control" of the situation, so when you use treats it is not to satisfy control issues too?

Treats aren't used to correct behaviour; they're used to reward it.

ORIGINAL: corvus


Okay, so collar pops are to correct. Correct what? Every behaviour that you're trying to train your dog to perform? If you use choose to use corrections, it's a part of training. I think that if you use a collar pop to 'correct', it has to be obvious to the dog what it's supposed to be doing instead. You said that yourself in the previous post. That's basically the definition of a correction.

You said in your previous post that collar pops are to redirect the dog's attention, but they're also for corrections? It sounds to me like you're confused about the use of collar pops yourself. Personally, I find clicking my fingers or saying "oi" gets my dog's attention every time without me needing to pop the collar so I can tell her what to do next. The only time I can imagine they might have any meaning to a dog is when you're teaching heel, and you've just told us why we shouldn't do it then. I don't hold with collar pops or forcing a dog to walk beside me by shortening the leash purely because I've seen people train dogs to walk perfectly on leash without using things like that, but that's just the way I like to do things. Why use force when you don't need to?

To correct what? correct bad behavior, duh. "it has to be obvious to the dog what it's supposed to be doing instead." and why the dog needs to do something else in specific?, if i want him to stop looking at something because i know he can start going crazy about it i just pop the collar, he will just look away and thats it, i dont need him to sit, i dont need him to heel, i dont need him to do anything, just stop looking, if we are walking he just need to keep walking

If you want a dog to sit because you "want him to do something else instead" it is for your own satisfaction and to show yourself he listens to you, you need to have more prove that he listens, i dont need my dog to show me he listens, i know he does, i know that only by looking away he did, if you are not confident enough and you need more prove well thats your case

"You said in your previous post that collar pops are to redirect the dog's attention, but they're also for corrections?" yeap thats exactly what it is [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif], by correcting your are redirecting his attention, you have an A in that test [].

Mudpuppy thinks that you use collar pops to, (and i quote) "learn general manners such as sit on command" when is not true, collar pops are NOT to teach a dog to do that, thats why i said that collar pops are for correction not for training (talking about the training he was referring to) got it?  []

Now you are mixing collar pops and short leash with making the dog walk next to you also, lets take out the collar pops first because they have anything to do with walking next to you, now that we just have a short leash you can explain me how having a short leash is consider using force in a dog?

ORIGINAL: corvus

Treats aren't used to correct behaviour; they're used to reward it.

So when +R people use treats to re direct attention they are not correcting bad behavior? so the day they dont have to use treats anymore we can not call that behavior corrected? or we are gonna be very especific with time frames?

So your dog is barking at the window and you call his name and show a treat, the second he turns his eyes to you is the "corrected behavior second"? but the second right after when you give them the treat is called "the reward second? or we can just call see it as we correct behavior with treats?

ORIGINAL: corvus

Treats aren't used to correct behaviour; they're used to reward it.

So when +R people use treats to re direct attention they are not correcting bad behavior? so the day they dont have to use treats anymore we can not call that behavior corrected? or we are gonna be very especific with time frames?

So your dog is barking at the window and you call his name and show a treat, the second he turns his eyes to you is the "corrected behavior second"? but the second right after when you give them the treat is called "the reward second? and thats why we can not say that treats are use to correct behavior? because that split second between looking at you and going for the treat? or we can just forget about everything and call it "correcting behavior with treats"?

I'm a prong user, I've been showed how to use it and to be honest I love them, I do not use them to cause pain to the dog. My gal was 2 when I got her with no manners I perfer walking with my feet not down on my arse. She loves going on walks so I haven't damaged her I won't use a head halter or a choke chain. Definately not a e-collar without a professional showing me the right way or if it would even help my dog. I reward with treats.

ORIGINAL: espencer

To correct what? correct bad behavior, duh. "it has to be obvious to the dog what it's supposed to be doing instead." and why the dog needs to do something else in specific?, if i want him to stop looking at something because i know he can start going crazy about it i just pop the collar, he will just look away and thats it, i dont need him to sit, i dont need him to heel, i dont need him to do anything, just stop looking, if we are walking he just need to keep walking

If you want a dog to sit because you "want him to do something else instead" it is for your own satisfaction and to show yourself he listens to you, you need to have more prove that he listens, i dont need my dog to show me he listens, i know he does, i know that only by looking away he did, if you are not confident enough and you need more prove well thats your case

Mudpuppy thinks that you use collar pops to, (and i quote) "learn general manners such as sit on command" when is not true, collar pops are NOT to teach a dog to do that, thats why i said that collar pops are for correction not for training (talking about the training he was referring to) got it?  []

Now you are mixing collar pops and short leash with making the dog walk next to you also, lets take out the collar pops first because they have anything to do with walking next to you, now that we just have a short leash you can explain me how having a short leash is consider using force in a dog?

We are talking about training a dog, right? As in, training a specific behaviour? Looking away is a specific behaviour. Even teaching your dog to stop whatever it's doing is a specific behaviour. My dog knows when I say "ah!" she stops what she is doing. Sometimes I give something else for her to do and sometimes I don't. If I do, that's redirecting too, but I don't need to because the behaviour I have trained is to stop and once she's done that she's performed exactly what I've trained her to do. It's not the same as redirecting her attention by calling her over and asking her to do something. In my mind, a correction and a redirection are pretty different things. A redirection can stop bad behaviour from happening/continuing by serving as a distraction, but corrections are not supposed to be distracting. As far as I can reason out, if you're going to use corrections there's not much point unless your dog knows what it's a correction for. A correction is change to fix a mistake or fault. Correcting for 'bad behaviour' is a very broad and vague thing to correct for. Incidentally, I believe Mudpuppy was referring to a training method that involves corrections, and the use of the collar pop as a correction.

I consider using a short leash force because the dog can't choose whether to walk beside you or not. In fact, it can't even choose whether to walk or not. The only choice open to it is to walk right by your leg. I eventually abandoned this with my dog and after a while she regularly chose to walk right beside me or on my heels anyway. I don't see why you need force if you can encourage the dog to choose this option without force. I use force occasionally on my dog when there is no other option. She gets very excitable and barks when we're getting ready to go for a walk. I tell her to sit. This redirects her and she concentrates on sitting instead of barking. I do it because I think it's nice to give her something she can do that I can praise her for in the middle of me denying her what she wants, and I also do it because it does usually stop her from barking. I don't do it to prove to myself that she can still listen. I do it for her benefit, not mine. Barkbarkbark "Pen, sit" sits, stops barking "good girl, now wait" she waits, being quiet "good girl, OK, let's go". Anyway, we don't go anywhere until she's quiet. You could say that I'm forcing her to stay put until she's quiet, but she has the choice of whether she wants to stand at the end of the lead and bark and go nowhere or come over and sit by my feet and be quiet and go somewhere. A little bit of force is sometimes necessary, but I don't believe it's necessary to use it to teach a dog simple manners when the dog has had a sound upbringing. When given the choice of whether she wants to behave 'badly', as defined in my head as something I don't want her to do, and get nowhere and nothing, and behaving well, by doing something I've taught her gets her what she wants, or at least nice things, then she chooses the latter. She has a choice, I didn't use force, we're all happy.

As my last note on redirection, I don't think it's necessary to use collar pops there, either. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I can say "oi", "hey", clap my hands or click my fingers or say my dog's name and they will all reliably redirect my dog's attention away from something I don't want her getting into. I can also say "leave it" and she'll look away, exactly as your dog does when you give it a collar pop, but that's not a redirection, it's a command. I certainly don't need to prove my dog is listening further by asking her to do something else. You've taught your dog "leave it" with a physical signal instead of a verbal signal.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: corvus

Treats aren't used to correct behaviour; they're used to reward it.

So when +R people use treats to re direct attention they are not correcting bad behavior? so the day they dont have to use treats anymore we can not call that behavior corrected? or we are gonna be very especific with time frames?

So your dog is barking at the window and you call his name and show a treat, the second he turns his eyes to you is the "corrected behavior second"? but the second right after when you give them the treat is called "the reward second? and thats why we can not say that treats are use to correct behavior? because that split second between looking at you and going for the treat? or we can just forget about everything and call it "correcting behavior with treats"?

That's not correcting, that's bribing. I don't use treats to get my dog's attention because I don't need to, however, it works wonders with my mother's independent vallhund and I would not hesitate to use it.

This goes back to my feeling that correction and redirection are very different things. I simply don't consider a redirection a correction because a redirection is a distraction. They just don't blend in my head. It's one or the other. That's my understanding of it and we could argue until we're blue in the face, but we'll both just be arguing whether a correction is the same as a redirection and not what the topic actually is.

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Here is a little secret, since my method does not include treats for praise, I am actually able to open up any kind of bag without my dogs lining up for the so called yum-yum, that they do get when they are relaxing.....................funny how that works.............

Wow, what a delightfully blind statement ^_^

I use treats for rewards....I can open up a bag of chips or what have you at home and my dog doesn't bat an eye

Mine come running, but that's because I like to feed them chips! []

I scruff my dogs, but they are taught from puppyhood that it's not an aggressive or dominating behavior.  I lead an unwilling puppy to its crate when it doesn't want play time to end, I lead the over excited dog away from the front door when we have visitors.  No hesitation, no fear.  It really depends on how and why you use the scruffing.  In my case, it's just collar replacement.  My dogs have heads smaller than their necks and can easily slip out of a collar when they want to.    I have scruffed a puppy who showed food aggression.  One time, corrected the behavior and it never returned.  If you have to do it more than once, then you need to find another way.  It shouldn't be an everyday battle of wills.

E-collars - I don't have any use for them.  I don't believe in harsh punishments or training methods - absolutely hate the ear pinch, forcing sits and downs, etc.  I do use chain collars, but only after leash training and molding the behavior with a martingale or limited slip.  I just like the way the chains look for competition.  []

I can say "oi",

 
Ah, the Australian technique. Good on ya!
 
Some people may have success with leash pops. I don't use them because of the equipment I use and what our walks are for. Shadow's dominant breed was bred to pull hard and run fast. Even at only 62.5 lbs I know he could pull me on a cart or sled. And I weigh 240. Anyway, I don't mind having him do what he was bred to do. So, we walk in harness and I use mushing commands.One day, we may have a cart and he will already know the commands for it. Yet, I can command him to stop, go, turn right, turn left, about (reverse direction), sit, down. The mushing commands were accomplished by saying the word when he would do that particular behavior. Plus, tugs on the leash, as one might use a bridle on a horse. No treats other than saying "good boy." Sheer endless repetition every day for two years. Which is not to say that he can't get keyed up on something and not hear a command the first time.
 
But I have corrected him for jumping on people. Turning your back on him doesn't work. The next thing you feel is paws on your back. That's the way his breed greets. I used the correction to stop a behavior, then give a command for what I want, and reward that action.