How Far Are You Willing to Go?

I don't really consider scruffing extreme.  I would never punch, kick, etc my dog.  I've really smacked him once, and that was in a blind action of pain, because Strauss bit me, and he bit me HARD.
 
I've taken one section of our training to the "extreme" as I purchased an e-collar to curb his now dangerous crittering of Rabbits.  As a quick update on that...we're getting MUCH better on the rabbits. 
 
We're stopping to THINK about the consequence of chasing the rabbits now.  Sometimes he'll make a start for one, and it's ended quickly by a quick Zap.  There is no yelping or yiping, no cowering, it is simply him snapping out of prey and saying "Oh crap, that's right, I shouldn't do that."
 
I think there are times when scruffing or "cheek lifting" is appropriate, but those times are no longer in training unless a dangerous situation has arisen, either caused by my dog, or by another. 
 
I have taken Strauss and scruffed him to get him out of the way of another aggressive animal.  I have seen other owners stick their body between an attacking dog and their own, and cheek scruff their dog to get it out of harm's way.  They're not trying to correct, they're trying to protect, and they do so with sincere apologies to their dog.  Heck, I've half hung my dog pulling him out of harm's way from some other idiot's dog.  I felt bad for it, and Strauss ended up getting a big "Make up" plain hamburger, but you do what you have to to save your dog from injury.
 
I think table training in sports like schutzhund is wrong, I refuse to do an earpinch on my dog to teach a retrieve (I've been told a dog can't be shown with a clicker trained retrieve....it's obviously bologna, as Strauss is doing better than the ear pinch trained dogs), I won't hang my dog until he passes out if he tries to bite me.
 
I think the only time extreme force is "ok" is to perhaps break up a dog fight.  Some get really nasty, ESPECIALLY bitch fights, and direct stop isn't going to do it.  They'll go at it blind if they have to, and if I have to take a 2x4 to get between them and break them up so somebody doesn't DIE, I'll do it.

I will give my dog a light pop on the behind if he is chewing on something he shouldn't be chewing on..etc. Or if he is playing with me and bites too hard, I will give him a tap on the tip of the nose, just for a little discomfort, but I've never had to hit my dog. Normally the "mean" voice works pretty well for me..but being a girl, I sound silly trying to make my voice deep like a man. Haha.

I have used a stock stick to stop behavior when herding.  It starts out as a "suggestion"  a blocking behavior the dog can yield to.  It may increase to taps on the feet.  I have never had to use a stock stick on a dog taking down a sheep but I would if necessary. 
 
I would use an e collar for trash behaviors that could get the dog killed, but only after management and differential reenforcement did not work.
 
As to why do I think most compulsion is used, its easy and it works.   And for some reason I just dont seem to udnerstand, it is easier for many people to react with an aversive rather than a positive.  I struggle with that on  a daily basis at work. I try and use any aversive wisely and minimally.
 
Now I have been to multiple positive training presenations, including Ted Turner the whale guy, not the media mogul.  He said "there is no baseball bat big enough to make a killer whale do something it doesnt want to."  Yup absolutely right.   Lets remember that the environment for training marine mammals is pretty controlled.  However, to offer a some what flawed example.   Could a positive approach work if there were prey animals in with those killer whales, or seals, or dolphins?  Now I am not proposing the use of  compulsion with marine mammals, just offering a point for discussion.
 
 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

There have been a lot of comments lately on this board from the camp that believes physical correction, or compulsion, works, and is sometimes necessary.  Others of us, myself included, as most of you know, believe that most training and behavioral modification situations can be addressed without pain or physical punishment.  So, I thought it might be interesting to ask the "pro spanking" crowd, to use the often invoked parallel to childrearing...if you do think it's ok to correct a dog, how far are you willing to go???
Do you draw the line at a light leash pop?  Are e-collars ok with you?
Would you strike a dog, drag a dog, scruff a dog?  If you would use extreme force, under what circumstances?  Are you aware of the negative consequences of certain punishments, and when would those consequences be sufficient to make you avoid using them?
Let's hear the bad, the worse and the ugly.  How far are you willing to go with compulsion to get obedience?

I agree 80% i would just change the part of  "most of" because i think all the situations can be addressed without pain or physical punishment

"pro spanking" crowd??? who are those people??? shame on them, they clrearly never saw how for example CM can handle a dog without spanking, and if they dont believe me i bet $100 that they can not show me one single of his episodes with him spanking a dog

"Would you strike a dog, drag a dog, scruff a dog?" who would do that? they should be in jail, actually i think they could be for do that right? +R and Behaviorists are against that 100%, i dont think you would find people like that in this forum because all of us here love dogs and we are against harm them at any moment

I am glad we agree on something here spiritdogs, it was time that we could all get together to be against people who harm dogs on purpose [], it does not matter what technique we use, i am sure +R and Behaviorists want the best for the dog without like you said any kind of punishment or pain []

I have scruffed my dogs, to seperate them, when they were ripping into each other. Both dogs were literally bleeding all over the place, and they had to be seperated (hopefully without tearing ME apart) or Teenie was going to DIE.

When someone is going to DIE, if something isn't done about the situation, I think it's forgivable. Of course, they do not routinely fight like that. It's something I've been working on for just over a year, now. There is never more than raised hair, any more. Physical correction is not something I would routinely practice.

The more I think about it, the more I think that scruffing a dog in an emergency-type situation is not the same as scruffing a dog for.... barking or something like that. It would be very, very wrong to scruff them for doing something so doggy.

I agree with espencer............"Pro-Spanking Group"?
 
What is that all about? I have trained my dogs with care, praise and love....no food association, gentle massage of the body, but I guess some Yahoo could call that "Spanking" , who knows.........
 
Here is a little secret, since my method does not include treats for praise, I am actually able to open up any kind of bag without my dogs lining up for the so called yum-yum, that they do get when they are relaxing.....................funny how that works.............

Here is a little secret, since my method does not include treats for praise, I am actually able to open up any kind of bag without my dogs lining up for the so called yum-yum, that they do get when they are relaxing.....................funny how that works.............

Wow, what a delightfully blind statement ^_^
 
I use treats for rewards....I can open up a bag of chips or what have you at home and my dog doesn't bat an eye

Good for you,[] I was referring to the folks who have to play the hide bag, or make sure it is in the pouch croud...............Btw., I am currently living with 4 dogs which haven't been trained with food association........

Here is a little secret, since my method does not include treats for praise, I am actually able to open up any kind of bag without my dogs lining up for the so called yum-yum, that they do get when they are relaxing.....................funny how that works.............

I train my dogs with food lures, and food rewards. I use treats only to begin behaviors, and for occasional rewards. They don't get treats for free.

They do not come running, when I open a bag, as they're usually under my feet, anyways[] Rarely do they ask for food. It's all about the training, not the reward. They are taught not to beg.  Of course, when I yell out something like "WHO WANTS COOKIES?!?!?!", they come running and throwing out their cutest tricks[]

I train using treats quite often, and Shippo is terrified of bags lol...

I think this is a good thread for everyone, not just the 'pro-spanking crowd'. It's always good to know where people would draw the line.

Personally, I'm comfortable clapping my hands and/or gruffing "ah!" if my dog is doing something I want her to stop immediately. I actually use it if she's obviously about to start doing something I don't want her to be doing and it tends to work pretty well. If she's gone totally berko and isn't listening to a word I say, if I'm within reach of her I firmly hold her head with one hand either side of her jaw and bring her head around so she's looking at me. I give her a good old stare and tell her to sit very quietly and sternly. That's as far as I'll go. If I'm not within reach, she's learnt that "Oi! Here!" means get yourself to my feet right now and sit down or else I'm going to come over there and you'll be stared and growled at.

I think it's okay to tell a dog when they're being real bad. Especially when they're usually very good and are acting up. I wouldn't do that to a dog I didn't have a strong bond and a good solid history of reward with already.

When I get my next puppy, until we've got that bond the most I'll do is yelp when he's too rough, walk away, and maybe gruff if he isn't getting the message. He'll learn his no-reward cue pretty early, too.

Dont link behaviorists and 100 positive.  The groups are not the same.

So you are a trainer who doesnt use food.  Ok, fine.  However what I can tell you that in JQP classes, especially beginner, when folks havent socialized, trained or practiced adequately, food can be the difference between staying in or dropping out.
 
When a dog is immensely fearful or highly distracted the power of liver is incredible and sets the occassion for learning to happen.  Bring in a rescue dog, hand feed it, your bond strengthens far more quickly.
 
Sure you can do it without, but why turn your back on any strategy that can work that well and that quickly.

I just posted on a different thread that I would absolutely use aversives if I had an extremely pully but not reactive dog that was having a really hard time learning how to walk on a loose lead.

I don't think delivering an aversive is always bad, but I do think that the use of aversives has to be extremely thoughtful because it can increase fear and destroy trust. There is usually a more elegant solution, but not always. Suzanne Clothier has written well about this:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/pposa.html

She posits that one must behave like a dog when punishing. And IMO this is usually difficult because I am a human, and it's not okay for humans to work out problems physically. So I generally use the tools I already know and this generally works well.