How Far Are You Willing to Go?

 I think that if we are open to learning from our mistakes we can learn and grow as guardians/trainers.  With Thor, the more I think about it, the old "life got in the way" shouldn't have affected his willingness to walk nicely on lead.  But, when he was young and we were walking daily, it just wasn't an issue.  But, then stuff happened and it became very much an issue. So I used a prong on him, after first trotting around a store with an employee behind me showing ME how it felt, and also how the choker felt.  I never used a leash correction with the prong, nor did I let Thor lunge at the end of the lead to "self correct".  I kept him on a short lead and he quickly learned that pulling was uncomfortable, and that when he DIDN'T pull, he got more lead.
 
Now, the reason that I have to wonder about the not daily walks is that the younger dogs have NEVER gotten actual daily walks, and I don't have problems with them.  Getting out and romping off lead or on drag lines is quite different than being on lead and being expected to behave nicely.  So, clearly I did something wrong with Thor and something quite RIGHT with the younger dogs, but for the life of me, I don't know what the heck it is.  I do know that with Sheba and her halti and Thor and his prong, for quite some time both dogs felt the need to wear them as "accesories".  Both behaved far better, for a very long time, wearing their jewelry without a lead attached, than just the flat collar to which the lead WAS attached.
 
A trainer I respect told me that working on drag lines or offlead got the dogs used to listening and paying really close attention to me and that might be the difference.  I WISH I knew what I had done differently and that I'd known what it was THEN so I'd never needed to use a prong on Thor......

So you are a trainer who doesnt use food. Ok, fine. However what I can tell you that in JQP classes, especially beginner, when folks havent socialized, trained or practiced adequately, food can be the difference between staying in or dropping out.

I agree that socializing a dog is important in training . I usually don't dive into training the minute the rescue arrives.

I differ with you on that.  When I get fosters who aren't actually BORN in my house, I get them into training within the first week of arrival.  I'm pretty good at the basics, but I'm not a trainer, and the rescues normally have some issues that need to be worked on BEFORE they can be rehomed.  Classes are the very best place to do that and immersing them in that setting works very well...and yep, liver treats certainly help.  In that, I guess that I'm a bit like JQP in that I NEED the results to be faster because I truely can't keep anymore dogs in my home on a permanate basis.  Six keep me busy enough.

I'm with Glenda.  My rescued dogs begin their education the first moment they walk in my door.  I quietly ask for a "sit" before we walk in.  The first day, I start hand feeding them for a week or two.  Once I get to feeding them from a bowl, they learn "wait", because the food doesn't hit the floor unless they do it.  So, in non-confrontational ways, they learn that I control the environment and the resources, right from the get go.
Anyone who thinks you don't start training right away is missing the point that the dog is trying to figure things out from the start, and that whatever your interaction is with him, he is learning from it.  So, it might as well be something well thought out on the human's part.

Maybe it's a little different for people who don't have such a large PUPulation, Anne.  But, in my house, there HAVE to be rules and acceptable behaviors or the inmates would be running the asylum! []

So, I thought it might be interesting to ask the "pro spanking" crowd, Do you draw the line at a light leash pop?  Are e-collars ok with you?
Would you strike a dog, drag a dog, scruff a dog?  If you would use extreme force, under what circumstances?  Are you aware of the negative consequences of certain punishments, and when would those consequences be sufficient to make you avoid using them? Let's hear the bad, the worse and the ugly.  How far are you willing to go with compulsion to get obedience?

 
Oh Spiritdogs I am so disappointed in you.  I think you know that most of here that do not agree with you totally and use some kind of aversion training don't abuse our dogs.  I think that is the heart of the disagreement and the heart of the “clicker/totally positive propaganda” , we keep getting told that we are mean and cruel.  It's not like you to start out anything with accusations and negativity - it is one the reasons I respect your opinion.
 
As for me (as I have explained a million times within these "debates") I use +/- R when ever I can and find much success most of the time.  I did use leash pops and still do if needed (although with maturity and training they are far and few between).  For me I found that +/-R only really worked to well with enhancing behaviors I wanted and not to curve "unwanted" behaviors.  When I want my do to pay attention, listen and stop doing something I may need to enlist a gentle "pop" wake up call.  I do not, kick, hit, choke, strangle, spank or any of these things you so rudely imply we do.
 
I have read most of the books you suggest and have received a lot of good info and I have read a lot of the “other side of the fence” as well and also received a lot of good info, including Cesar.  What I have found is that “clicker” world is build around propaganda and for that I have little respect.  Please remember, we all love our dogs and we do what we believe is best for them.  I don#%92t have a shut down dog, I don#%92t have a scared dog, I don#%92t have a dog is crippled from my spanking or that has ever even yelped for things I do.  So I take offense, since your post is aimed to “us” not totally “100%” positive trainers like you.  These are our pets and we love them and care about them and for them in case you didn#%92t know this.
 

I didn't take Anne's post as an attack myself.  And I HAVE used aversives in the past.
 
I would LOVE to know what the heck I did RIGHT with the younger dogs that they've never needed a prong or even a leash correction/pop and still walk like little angels on lead.  Cuz if I KNEW for sure, well then, I could repeat that with future dogs (although hopefully not for a VERY long time since the Inn is pretty full) and never have to resort to a prong again........

luvmyswissy, "methinks you doth protest too much".  Others on the forum have likened physical punishment of dogs to the necessity for spanking children.  But, there is a distinction to be drawn between a spanking and pulling out a paddle or a leather strap.  Not that any of us would resort to that with a child, but my question goes to the heart of why people feel it necessary to punish a dog physically.  Obviously it is to make the dog comply.  So, it is logical to ask how far someone would go to make that happen.  It also speaks, in some cases, to the lack of training tools that some owners seem equipped with.  It is also a way for me to assess, using the honesty of forum members, how many of my own students may carry these attitudes and be using these techniques at home before they ever get to me.  It gives me ways to reach them, based on "how far they might be willing to go", with a more dog-friendly approach.  I don't need to use this thread to preach - I do enough proselytizing of dog-friendly training when answering individual questions about training and behavior.  This time, I merely wanted to see why the idea of physical punishment is so ingrained, and why people who obviously love their dogs are willing to use it.

Anne's post is not exactly an attack, it is a pointed post regarding how cruel the "pro spanking" community is.  Who is the pro spanking community if not us who interact on these boards ever day?  I can only assume that the post is pointed to us who use some aversion like myself – if not, than who is the audience?  I don't know any spankers of this board, do you?  Like I said, usually Anne is a benevolent leader on these boards and is respected for it.   Anne, I love you and respect you this not an attack of you - but this is clearly where the politics and minutia broke you down to the level of some others.

This is not my first dog by a long shot and I agree, my sweet mixed breed I put down last year at 15 needed minimal training to be a great dog, it had nothing to do with what I did right or wrong.  He was subordinate from puppy hood, sweet and innocent.  However, my Swissies a hard, working dogs who love to PLEASE me - however, when they are young, focused and adolescent they need a strong mind and leader - all dogs are different.  My little pug runs for the hills if I YELL "att, att” at her and she has never had an aversion method us on her in her life!

For the record, I worked with my dog using +/-R for 3 months to try and have him live with my new cat without obsessing and chasing her.  He just wanted to play, but man was he obsessive, to the point he would run up the back of my couch to get to her and we had to keep them separated.  Finally, I was so fed up I put the choke on and the leash (like back during training times) and began aversion methods (gentle pop's) and you know what? With in a week when I said "leave it” he stopped, turned and walked away and jumped on his toys. 

We must have posted at the same time Anne I didn't see your reponse.  Maybe this post is just that a fact finder for you.  But I still it was harsh and unwarented and will stir anamosity from those especially that don't agree with you 100% or for those who need to use some aversions with there dogs.

I had the same problem with my newest rescue and my cat. The situation took care of itself by the cat jumping on him wrapping his body around him and biting him in the neck......poof....end of problem.
 
Sometimes a little force goes a long way!!![]

Having studied with a very "old school" Koehler instructor who was the opposite end of the spectrum from the "Positive Only" crowd, but just as fanatical and extreme in his belief system, I made the choice not to take a correction to the level he instructed. I also will not hit a dog with a strap, dunk it's head in water to prevent digging, hang a dog off of the ground with all paws dangling, or tape an object in a dog's mouth...as my former instructor recommended.

Although I personally do not use e-collars, I support their use in certain circumstances to prevent a dog from attacking and killing other animals and for poison proofing - especially for snakes. I also don't have a problem with anyone who uses them in the field when cueing or correcting a dog at a distance. I would use these collars if I was properly instructed in their correct use.

I use a bump of the leash to set a boundary, redirect, contain, or correct a dog. I do not use the severe leash corrections my former instuctor did.

If a dog is completely out of control and trying to attack me or another dog I will lift their front end off of the ground, or put them on the ground to diffuse an attack or to get an out of control dog to calm down. I've only rarely had to do this and only with very extreme cases. I've also had a dog drop of their own accord by a swift movement in from the side and a touch on the neck when this dog went for someone. This dog never did it again and was a dog I rescued from death due to her aggression towards other dogs and humans.

I also don't use a can full of pennies, squirt bottles in the face, or yelling and screaming - although I do use a deep bark of  "hey" in emergency recall situations.

I mostly use leadership attitude, demeanor, body positioning, eye contact, body blocking, and a verbal boundary with the correct tone, to get my point across.
 
In the case of a dog fight, I would do whatever I could to break up the fight and stop the dogs from killing each other. There is no perfect way to deal with this in the moment.

Maybe Anne's post could have been worded a bit "more kindly" but I didn't see it as an attack, merely as a post asking the question "How far would you go?"
 
How far would I go within my training?  I think it's very situational.  At this point with my new girl, because of her leash reactivity and stupid people that pay no attention to their pets, it seems I am doing a bit more pulling around to avoid confrontations with loose animals.  Also that reactivity has been contagious to Xerxes as well.  It seems a never ending battle with people that think "oh he's a friendly dog" is the answer to them walking without a leash.  And then I look like the bad guy because my dogs are barking and reacting.  So in that situation, I have to leash drag my dogs out of visual range of the "offending" animal.
 
Training, for me, takes place from minute one of a dog's entrance into my life.  Dogs need to know what is expected of them.  I'm not harsh, I'm not "mean."  I do expect compliance and civility.  If a dog wants attention from me, they cannot simply barge into and demand attention.  I prefer to have a dog sit before I relish that dog with attention or praise.  I'll hand feed a new dog - I did this for a very long week with my new girl.  Now she won't leave my side for more than 2 or 3 minutes at a time.  With her I've tried to use 100% positive, happy, trust building training.  And it's worked pretty well.  If Gaia and Xerxes are becoming very annoying and playing rough in an inappropriate area, all I need to do is growl.  She stops the play and looks at me as if to apologize.  She doesn't handle human anger well, it seems to me she may have been yelled at or even handled a bit roughly in her former life.
 
Anyways I prefer gentle, firm redirection when it comes to physical redirection- a nudge or a gentle touch coupled with a verbal command:  "Leave it" or "Off" or "Down."
 
Anyone with Pharaoh Hounds knows that 10% of the time you really want to strangle the dogs...but I can say that I've never done that nor resorted to physical scruffing, other than the scruffing that I do when I'm loving on them and giving them massages.

are you talking about controlling emergency situations? or general training?
I think I might be willing to go "pretty far" during an emergency, even to the point of whalloping a dog with a baseball bat if that's what it took to save a life.
 
I've actually tried all sorts of doggy equipment on myself, and watched a lot of dogs react to different training methods and equipment, and here is my list of aversive things I would be willing to use under certain training circumstances with certain dogs:   verbal marker (Uh oh or whoops). Prong collar. Ecollar. No-bark shock collar. Noisy booby traps. Long line or leash attached to a buckle collar or a body harness (yes, a leash is an aversive unless it's slack or being used as a  tug toy).
 
Things I flat-out refuse to use under all circumstances: Choke collars. Ear pinches. Kicking. Hitting. Hanging. Scruffing. Rolling.
 
Things I consider to be generally ineffective and therefore don't bother with: leash pops. Light swats on the butt or nose. The word No. Shaking cans of pennies. Squirt guns. Physically positioning the non-compliant dog to enforce a command (push the butt down into a sit, that sort of thing).

I think some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.  I read posts daily from some of you who make off like you are some kind of "expert" on dog training and/or dog psychology.  I also read brags about how accomplished some of the dogs here are and always admire them. Then I read about how some of that is achieved.  [&:]

I see no need for any of these prongs, chokes, shocks, "pops", hitting on the nose???  If  I can take a 2 year old chow, who had never lived in a house before, no training, no leadership at all, aggressive. And, research and read and learn how to positively show this girl what is expected of her then so can anyone. She has never even had a regular collar around her neck much less a prong or a choke chain.  I never had a dog before much less a dog like she was.  I think your not trying hard enough and expecting too much too fast if you need to go to harsh methods.

I then taught her all commands myself, all positive. The only "harsh" thing I do is raise my voice if she's doing something that could put herself in danger.