How Far Are You Willing to Go?

Max would be an extremely hard dog to be really *stern* with.  He's very gentle, mellow, laid back. I don't think he's ever even been yelled at, at least not since he's been in my house. If he has something he shouldn't have, a simple "No, Max.  I don't think you should have that" is all it takes.  He drops it and rolls over on his back.  I never taught him to do that - he's just always done it. He doesn't actually beg.  Sometimes he'll sit and give you *the look*, but if he's ignored, he walks away. If you give him a piece of meat, you don't feel teeth.  He just sucks & slurps it out of your hand. I would yank his leash if I felt he was starting to do something like lunge at another dog but about 99% of the time when we see another dog coming, I can say "no jumping" and he listens. I want him to obey because he wants to please, not because he's afraid that if he doesn't he's going to get whomped upside the head with a rolled up magazine.

Joyce

I'm not ashamed of myself or my dog, actually I am pretty proud of my of us both.  I used a choke and leash pops (which I don't use anymore now that he is two, matured and trained) along with much +/-P reinforcement and he is a terrific dog!!   There are few people who know me and my dog who don't comment on what a great dog he is.  He listens, he comes when called, he sits and stays, his leave it is good - for the most part and he looks at me with adorning eyes.  He pretty much never leaves my side, why?  Beacaue he love me and it shows in his face.  He does not shut down, coward or act scared with anyone and loves to play games, train and romp around. 

I can still say that I haven't read anything on these boards (maybe I missed it) were anyone has used any real harmful methods.  I don't know, I guess I just don't understand where, on this board, we have people "spanking", "choking", "hitting", "kicking", "hanging" or "hurting" their dogs.  I just haven't seen it.  All I see is that some of us beleive aversion techniques do work for some of our dogs, for some things better than not using them at all.

PS:  My dog is not aggressive, (with the exception of bowl guarding early on) if he were I maybe would have found other methods to work on him with, but thankfully he is not.

PSS:  Good for you Willowchow that you have been able to train your dog without a collar and with only love and kisses!!  I know he does have some aggression so hopefully you don't need that collar to control him someday becasue you may be sorry you don't use one.

If we're talking about general dog training, day to day stuff, manners, obedience, teaching new things, agility, just everyday most things I'm all about as much +R as possible. IMO for me and my dogs there is no place for physical corrections in these things. I think that sometimes there is a place for verbal corrections (such as an "Eh-Eh" which actually serves more as an attention getter than a correction) if I see one of my dogs doing something undesirable, followed by a re-direction - and praise for taking the redirection. That's the limit for me there.

If we're talking about emergency situations such as a dog fight- I do only as much as necessary to take care of things. If this means seperating two dogs by a stronghold on their scruffs, or using a broomhandle to seperate them, then so-be-it. If I walk into the kitchen and find one of my dogs attacking the puppy over something they stole, that dog WILL find my hands on it (to remove it from the situation). Then that dog WILL find itself seperated from the pack.

If we're talking about training a dog on stock, for me that is a different type of classification. Stockdog training in and of itself is a mishmash of training methods, including +R (letting the dog have it's sheep) and technically aversives - even speaking the dog's name is an aversive because it takes the dog's attention away from the sheep. In a stock working situation I will use aversives in that context, but only as much as necessary and never any more. Only once have I ever put my hands on my dog while working stock (it was a not-quite scruffing) - and it was a desperate situation in which we were both in danger.

I guess my answer would be that the training situations that require touching my dogs physically are few and far between, but it has happened. This type of thing does not have a consistent or even particularly quantitative part in my training. But - it would be dishonest to say that it would *never* happen, or *never* have a place.

Edit to add: my dogs all wear flat collars. They actually do not wear collars at home at all.

Good for you Willowchow that you have been able to train your dog without a collar and with only love and kisses!!

 
Actually, this is what I said helped me to train her. 
 

take a 2 year old chow, who had never lived in a house before, no training, no leadership at all, aggressive. And, research and read and learn how to positively show this girl what is expected of her then so can anyone.  

 

  I know he does have some aggression so hopefully you don't need that collar to control him someday becasue you may be sorry you don't use one

 
And any type of prong, choke or shock collar would not help aggression nor control it.  I don't put her in situations where her temperment would be an issue that's how I control those issues.
 
Did I mention your name or something in my ost?  I notice a few others here pretty much are stating the same thing yet you are singling me out.  I have a right to post my opinions nobody said you had to argue them with me or agree with them.

PSS:  Good for you Willowchow that you have been able to train your dog without a collar and with only love and kisses!!  I know he does have some aggression so hopefully you don't need that collar to control him someday becasue you may be sorry you don't use one.

This is an ugly and judgemental statement. I think it's important for everyone taking part in these discussions to keep in mind that this is an internet forum, and that we do not know one another's dogs. Aggression is a very tricky issue, and people who have not managed an aggressive dog have no leg to stand on if they decide to judge the methods of those who have.

I didn't mean to single you out Willowchow I guess it was your post below that I found picking on us owners who do use these tools so it was the comment that got me going.  And no my dog isn't aggressive and I sure don't envy you.  I usually try and stay out of these judgemental post just for this reason.  Sorry if I offended, didn't mean to.

I think some of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I read posts daily from some of you who make off like you are some kind of "expert" on dog training and/or dog psychology. I also read brags about how accomplished some of the dogs here are and always admire them. Then I read about how some of that is achieved.

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Interesting topic Spiritdogs. I'll do whatever necessary to stop a fight but hope I won't be stuipd and/or unfortunate enough to ever place my dogs in that situation again. It has happened once.
 
Other than that, I certainly haven't been in every situation but for my own dogs, the answer is not very far at all. A few years ago I hired a trainer, paid $650. upfront. He placed prong collars on my dogs' necks and forced them into down. I was instructed to do this 3x per day for a minimum of 20 minutes per session. Then since leash pulling was an issue we went for a walk. Darling Wolfgang moved a little ahead of the trainer, not even pulling yet, and YANK!!! followed by YELP!!!! I asked for my dog's leash back. Told him he was fired. Do not pass go. My only regret is that I didn't do it when he forced the down, although it was slower and not painful. (OK I regret that I didn't do enough homework first). Neither of these dogs have emotional or socialization issues. One trains very easily for food and the other works better for play and adventure so is a bit more challenging.  I fail to understand why anyone would prefer yanking on a dog's neck to giving them a treat or a toy.
 
My rescue Malinois has some fear issues. He was a decently trained dog when he arrived, but poorly socialized. I suspect he had compulsion training. I've had good success with Clothier's methods of shaping body posture and teaching self-control, as well as Rugaas' method of using calming signals. This guy will happily do anything for any reward if he's able to understand what I want and after he's overcome his fears. I wish though he'd show a little more curiosity and sense of adventure. Some of the joys the other two find pass him by, although he's learning from them too.

Ok folks..here it is AGAIN...stopping getting personal and taking things personal. Discussions can be had by sticking to topics and not "assuming" this is about "YOU"

I'll answer your question at face value, no hidden agendas or slippery semantics.
 
I have used a scruff with Shadow. It is not painful, and I have seen people use a painful scruff, i.e., they grab by the scruff or cheek and drag the dog with only its hind legs touching the ground. That is not for me. When I scruff, I have a handful of his hide on the back of his neck and a slight pressure down. He will lower himself and roll on his side. I will lock eyes. With Sibes, he who blinks first, loses. That is a correction to stop a behavior and pay attention to me. I let go and give him a command to obey that is praiseworthy, such as here or sit. He may go back to the behavior, and I will do it again, much like a momma dog would keep re-directing a pup until it obeys. That is, with me, the scruff is not painful but it is a physical and psychological control. I can't see the harm in it if he survived momma dog doing it. But it is not my first means of control. I try obedience commands first, which were learned with treats. When he's too keyed up to respond to a treat, I may have to scruff, but not always. It depends on the situation. When he didn't want to go in the vet clinic to get his vacc's updated, we and the vet went outside until we found a spot comfortable for him. The situation did not require a physical correction, as opposed to aggressive or unwanted behavior. I lead him to where he his comfortable. And I lead him to take the burden off of his mind, even though he walks in harness to my side or in front. It's not the equipment, it's the attitude. I've gotten him into Petco 3 times this week. I move without hesitation, not giving him time to decide if he wants to do it or not and he can trust that I will not lead him into harm and he will know that I am in charge, not him. I changed my attitude. With constant exposure and good experience comes good habituation.
 
I will not hit him or cause physical pain, even when he bit me, once. That incident was, indeed, my fault, but even so, I did not get mad at him or "punish" him. I dressed my wound and considered it a lesson learned. BTW, he's never bitten me again. But if he is behaving in a way that is ignoring my obedience in an important situation, I will physically control with whatever it takes, be it a command, re-leashing, segregation, or a scruff. That is, the scruff is just one tool, suitable for certain circumstances, such as when non-touch methods haven't worked.
 
I could possibly use remote collar training, as I better understand now, how it is used properly. Used properly, it's less invasive than a scruff. I say that even though I'm not fond of electrical shocks, having received many during my lifetime.
 

I think that if it works and doesn't give the dog issues then it is ok.
I believe that you should try to do everything without causing your dog pain. I'm sure no one here wants to hurt their dog just for the fun of it, that would be sadistic, but sometimes nothing else works.  Some of you say 'it worked for me' Well, some arnt as talented as you. I believe that getting the word out about +R is a good idea because there are people who use 'training' as an escuse to abuse their dogs, or people who don't know of an alternative. 

Good question...  In regular training - I would go far enough physically (or audibly) to redirect my dog - step on his leash if he is jumping, shake a can with coins if he is getting into something across the room, give an "eh eh" if he is about to eat some garbage on our walk...  as soon as the redirection is given, and his attention is back on me, a command is given and once he complies, we are all praise and reward.  I have come to the belief that with Wesley, it is ok to put pressure on him, if it is something he knows, he is jumping or pulling on a leash or something he knows better than to do, I can put pressue on him with a noise, a tug on his leash or stepping in toward him and showing him with my body language that he needs to move out of the way; but, as soon as I get the attention back, the pressure has to come right off...  and that is how I can "correct" without ever having to fear that he will shut down.
 
On sheep, Wesley will take a lot more correction than I would ever give - because the distraction of the sheep is so great that sometimes he loses his cool and can become a danger to himself, or the sheep.  In those instances, his handler has tapped him with the stick, moved in on him, really yelling and caused him to go belly up (no physical contact - Wes drops on his own) but again, the minute the attention is back on the handler - pressure comes off, he is told what to do next and when he does it, he is gooooood.  To be honest, this much physical correction scared me a little at first - but Wesley is a very hard dog, many handlers wouldn't have wanted to work with him and Wes doesn't love too many people - he loves this guy, he works well for him and "if it ain't broke...". 
 
Last, I guess, is an emergency situation.  If there was a dog fight, there is nothing I wouldn't do.  I have picked Wesley up by the scruff and carried him away, I would do that and more again - in a serious fight all bets are off...  But, I don't think that was the point of the thread...

Somedays I'm tempted to do something drastic (like the e-collar) on Murphy and the squirrels. It's that terrier/lab drive in him and it's STRONG.
 
Wahh! We're getting better, through training AND management (until he's better at controlling himself), but wow--what a lot of work. And true enough, it's worse now since the squirrels are frantically working before winter sets in . . .

Ok i know zip about training,i have NO clue what R+ or R- is,i've been to a total of 2 training classes in my whole life,and i have never been without dogs in my home.

Here are some things i would NEVER and have never used on my dogs.

*Shock collars(,to the people who use these,would you strap an electric shock collar on your child to teach him wrong from right? No? Then why subject your loyal,loving dogs to this method?)

*prong,same question as above

*choke chains,see above

*Crates,except in the first 2 to 3 weeks of pup coming home,and then only overnight for a max of 5 hours.I also very infrequently foster and never use crates in those situations either.

*physical correction or man handling of any sort,never saw the need or felt the need to hit or cause pain to a defensless,trusting animal.I have never so much raised a finger to my dogs,letta lone made physical contact.I do however raise my voice on occasion,that is enough to pull them into line,bullying of anyone in my house,child or animal is not acceptable!

My dogs are allowed in every room of the house,they can sleep on my bed if they so choose,they can jump up on the couch to have a snuggle if they want,they dont have to wait to be invited,i'm happy to give them love when they want it.

I give them treats when they ask for them(ofcourse not constantly),sometimes i ask them to sit or drop first,other times i dont.

I use harnesses on all of my dogs,but only on our walk to where ever we are going,and then when we get there they are leash free.They usually spend 5 or so minutes on lead and an hour or two off lead,2 sometimes 3 times per day,every single day,rain,hail or shine.Not a day has gone by,or ever will go by that they dont get at least one long off lead walk.When we get to our walking destination,i go by their pace and allow them to stop or sniff for as long as they like and generally go where they like.I am lucky in that they stick pretty close to me and dont go up to other dogs.For some reason i am more interesting to them than anything we have ever encountered...touch wood... I have never taught them recall persay,but they come when i call them.

Shock collars,prongs etc etc have become the quick,easy fix and seem to have replaced training,which lets face it requires a lot more time and patience then slapping an electric shock collar on your dog.There is a reason these devices have been banned in other countries[8|]

I also dont belong to the school of neutering everything that breathes,and it frustrates me to no end when people use neutering to try and fix what is nothing more than a training problem! Sure, spay and neuter your dog,but wait till he/she is fully mature and DO NOT use this in place of training,chopping a dogs balls off is not going to turn him into an obedient angel,only time and effort will do this.

So what training/dog owning group do i fall in? I'm curious.[]

Here are some things i would NEVER and have never used on my dogs.

 
I think you forgot in your list dressing up dogs in funny and ridiculous outfits.

Is a Santa hat at Christmas out of the question???[]