How Far Are You Willing to Go?

*Shock collars(,to the people who use these,would you strap an electric shock collar on your child to teach him wrong from right? No? Then why subject your loyal,loving dogs to this method?)

Yeah, I would, but I don't like children.
 
I'm using an e-collar on my dog right now, not because I hate him, but because I LOVE him.  +R has not worked on him with his crittering, distraction work has not worked on him with his crittering, and I don't need to be told that physical force by me won't work on him with his crittering.
 
My dog recently sailed OVER a 6 foot fence to go after a rabbit...he's NEVER in his life even considered that before.  My dog nearly dragged me INTO the street going after a rabbit, something he has NEVER done before.  The e-collar, quite frankly, is saving my dog's life and preventing my heart from being broken.
 
My dog has had no ill effects from being shocked from the collar, my dog has no idea that the shock is connected with me.  He thinks that the rabbits are causing it.  Good.  Keeps him from crittering on the rabbits.
 
I've used a pinch collar on my dog, no ill effects.  Just a nicer walker and the ability to proof his heel work.  I really hate it when people make out a certain training tool to be evil simply because THEY don't like it.  When you've got a dog that is risking his life to go crittering on a 6 pound animal, then come to me and tell me how evil shock collars are, after you've tried several other methods that have been ineffective.
 
I know people who have bought remote shock collars for their DEAF dogs.  The e-collar is extremely important to these people because their dogs cannot hear their commands!  They use vibrations to get the dog's attention, and they use nick's to correct improper behavior.  They are using the e-collar responsibly and in a way that they can communicate what they want from their dog.  These people would probably not be able to handle the deaf dogs if it weren't for the e-collars.
 
My buying an e-collar was a last resort, and I didn't take the decision lightly.  This is not a quick fix.  My dog is being TRAINED not to critter on rabbits.  This isn't a "Take my dog out set him in a field of rabbits and zap the ***** out of him" type thing.  This is a "Give him a quick nick and teach him that rabbit chasing is a bad idea" type thing.
 
I use choke chains these days when I forget one of my other collars, or when I'm exhibiting in conformation.  I just clip the leash to the dead ring.  Used correctly, I don't think there's anything wrong with them, but I prefer a prong to a choke.
 

So what training/dog owning group do i fall in? I'm curious.[]

The one that wants to take away useful training tools for the rest of us.

xeph what would you do if you lived in one of the countries where shock collars and prongs are banned? I'm sure there are tonns of dogs who exhibit the behaviour you describe,and yet their owners manage without using devices that cause pain or discomfort...
Intense training to correct problem behaviour is much harder in every way to using such devices,no?
From what i have observed,shock collars particularly, have taken the place of training [&:]

If something causes pain to my dogs there is no way i would use it,no matter what.There are always other options.

That's a good point. I've heard that shock collars are banned in my state, but I know they're not in other states. I have no idea about prongs, but I've never seen one. It's hard to buy either at any rate. You can get the invisible fences a little easier, but most pet shops don't have them, either. You have to shop online.

I can't decide if I'd rather we had prongs or choke chains. I've heard that while prongs do actually hurt while chokes don't really, at least they don't do any lasting physical damage to the dog. I'm a little scared of choke chains, just because of what can happen with them in an emergency situation.

Allow me to explain to you how one uses a remote or "shock" collar. First, if the dog has never worn a collar before of any type, they must get used to. Next, you will have the setting on the lowest possible setting. Press the button and raise the level just until the dog registers a feeling, which may be a simple as furrowing an eyebrow, looking at the ground, or twitching an ear. You always train at the lowest level. Some of the old units sold in Europe had no variable setting and that's why they were banned. American products are variable. To the dog, it feels less invasive than a leash correction and more like a friendly reminder from momma. Used properly, a dog trains very quickly and it is invaluable for field and hunting dogs. They can range out of their ability to hear you. If they are upwind and tracking a scent, they won't smell the treat in your hand. You need something that reminds them to recall.

I have used a choke nylon strap only on a few occasions when training and after that the dog just wears it like Glenda said and use of flat buckle collar.  I have found that scolding verbally works the best for behaviors that are naughty when the +R isn't getting through.  Harley is not one to take well to -R.  My Rott didn't like -R either.  I use treats and lots of praise and I get the results.  I have seen dogs go nuts with prong collars although I think most of that is with improper use.  A choke if used properly and minimally doesn't seem to have the lasting negative effects as the prong.  This is just what I have observed.  I prefer to use +R training.
As far as the shock collars I have seen them used instead of using them in conjunction with training.  I don't think you should expect the collar to train the dog not to do something alone.  I think in extreme cases you need to do training as well.
Crating I think is fine...my dog Harley loves his crate and very often will go in there and naps when he pleases.  I do not think crating is abusive.  My dog Harley has food and water in his crate at all times.  The crate is his space and his sanctuary.

Regardless of how it's used, Ron, there are some places where they are banned.  So, I think our posters have a point that if you want a well behaved dog in those places, you must train, and not use a device to take the place of that.  Whether you agree or disagree with the use of shock collars, that is a reality in those locations.  And, quite frankly, I'm sure there are people in those places whose dogs retrieve, do agility, perform in obedience trials, and act as service dogs or gundogs.
Speaking of service dogs - most of them nowadays are trained using clickers.  And, when you talk about the need for reliability of performance, it is certainly a must for dogs on whom the disabled depend.  So, why are people here still so stuck on e-collars, prongs, and slip collars?  What would happen if, for just six months, you all decided to see what life would be like if you lived in a jurisdiction where those things were illegal?  Might be an interesting experiment - are any of you game to try?

I must say that I have used noise or force to break up dog fights, and I don't have too much trouble using a harmless booby trap (that makes noise but doesn't hurt the dog or make him associate the penalty with a human), since I know it can prevent countersurfing before it starts (and prevent the dog from possibly grabbing a hot baked potato or a bottle of someone's heart medicine).   Because physical force engages oppositional reflex, often increases aggression, and produces dogs that "shut down" or don't offer behavior for fear of punishment (often seen as "obedience"), I prefer not to use it except in the most extreme cases, which, to me, involve the possibility of injury or death to a dog or a human.   But, I fail to see how anyone needs force to train a proper recall, or to  have a dog  that  will sit and stay.
My guess is that they simply have not learned proper technique, have not found the motivator that their dogs are willing to work for, or are introducing distractions before the dog is first confirmed in the command.  You don't teach a dog to heel on your daily walk without first teaching him in the safety and security of your living room or back yard.  Once he "gets" the word heel means to stay by your side, it's a lot easier to tell him he still has to do it when you leave the yard.  Increase the distractions, reduce your criteria for the behavior, so that the dog is not overwhelmed, and success is more likely.  Instead, many humans simply want control.  That isn't achieved without lots of training (managing the dog's environment in the meantime), or force.  I prefer training.

Also, ron, no dog that is properly trained to recall needs to "smell the treat in your hand".  If your dog has to do that, you have not trained the recall properly!!!! 
Phase one of an emergency recall...
Just an experiment for you.  Go buy an Acme Thunderer whistle.  Every day for two weeks, blow the whistle (it's loud, do it gently at first so as not to scare your dog), then hand your dog a piece of roast beef.  Don't talk to him, don't call him.  Just find times when he is right next to you, and whistle/beef.   After a couple of weeks, hide on him, blow the whistle, and as soon as he gets to you, give him beef.  Do that for a week.  Next, take him out in the yard and let him play (you first hide the beef in the yard out of his reach and make sure you don't smell of it).  Let him busy himself in the yard.  Then whistle - if he comes to you, get happy & talk to him about how great he is, and head for the beef, which he gets!   Next, when you are doing these exercises, as soon as he arrives at your feet, say his name and "come" ONCE and feed immediately.  Getting to you should be the highest thing on his list of cool things to do. 
See how reliable his response seems to get....
(For those of you whose dogs aren't food oriented, a rabbit pelt or other good toy that they obsess on will do as a reward).
Try it!

ORIGINAL: Xeph

*Shock collars(,to the people who use these,would you strap an electric shock collar on your child to teach him wrong from right? No? Then why subject your loyal,loving dogs to this method?)

Yeah, I would, but I don't like children.

I'm using an e-collar on my dog right now, not because I hate him, but because I LOVE him.  +R has not worked on him with his crittering, distraction work has not worked on him with his crittering, and I don't need to be told that physical force by me won't work on him with his crittering.

My dog recently sailed OVER a 6 foot fence to go after a rabbit...he's NEVER in his life even considered that before.  My dog nearly dragged me INTO the street going after a rabbit, something he has NEVER done before.  The e-collar, quite frankly, is saving my dog's life and preventing my heart from being broken.

My dog has had no ill effects from being shocked from the collar, my dog has no idea that the shock is connected with me.  He thinks that the rabbits are causing it.  Good.  Keeps him from crittering on the rabbits.

I've used a pinch collar on my dog, no ill effects.  Just a nicer walker and the ability to proof his heel work.  I really hate it when people make out a certain training tool to be evil simply because THEY don't like it.  When you've got a dog that is risking his life to go crittering on a 6 pound animal, then come to me and tell me how evil shock collars are, after you've tried several other methods that have been ineffective.

I know people who have bought remote shock collars for their DEAF dogs.  The e-collar is extremely important to these people because their dogs cannot hear their commands!  They use vibrations to get the dog's attention, and they use nick's to correct improper behavior.  They are using the e-collar responsibly and in a way that they can communicate what they want from their dog.  These people would probably not be able to handle the deaf dogs if it weren't for the e-collars.

My buying an e-collar was a last resort, and I didn't take the decision lightly.  This is not a quick fix.  My dog is being TRAINED not to critter on rabbits.  This isn't a "Take my dog out set him in a field of rabbits and zap the ***** out of him" type thing.  This is a "Give him a quick nick and teach him that rabbit chasing is a bad idea" type thing.

I use choke chains these days when I forget one of my other collars, or when I'm exhibiting in conformation.  I just clip the leash to the dead ring.  Used correctly, I don't think there's anything wrong with them, but I prefer a prong to a choke.

So what training/dog owning group do i fall in? I'm curious.[]

The one that wants to take away useful training tools for the rest of us.

 
Very good post []
 
I use e-collars as well. While I want my dogs to chase bunnies, I don't want them to chase deer or other off-game. My dogs are usually a very long distance from me, in hot pursuit (full cry), and in heavy cover, so them hearing me or seeing me is not an option. IF they were to strike on a deer, it could "carry" them a mile or more away from me. Understanding the "running" habits of game is important in this case. While I may not see a deer (or other off-game), I know how they "run" and their behavior, as well as, the dogs behavior when they are running different game (besides rabbit). It is imperative to protect my dogs in these types of cases. It is for THEIR LIFE that I use this method, but I don't do it without education.  
As I have stated before, I don't advocate e-collars in every situation, but the DO have their place. They are NOT cruel if used correctly, but regardless of this, they will still be dismissed by some as such.

There are many groups who do want to dictate which methods and/or training tools an owner should be allowed to use.
 
Although I personally think it's up to the owner to decide which methods and tools they find useful as long as these devices are used correctly and humanely, the APDT has been very active in trying to ban all e-collars as being barbaric, inhumane, and not in line with the "Positive Only" belief system.
 
 

I've taught recall without an e collar, and I've got german shepherds for crying out loud, who think that herding the deer or the wild turkey or the pheasants or bunnies is their JOB.  Now, since I've been a wuss about the snakes all summer, when we start getting out into the fields again, I'm going to test that recall by using drag lines (and wearing high boots to protect my ANKLES!) just to be safe.
 
Now, every now and then you get a dummy owner who somewhere along the line screwed up with the heel part...even tho it was perfect in the house and yard, the second we got out the front door Thor turned into a pulling monster.  Being a tree ain't easy with 93 lbs of pure muscle and he could literally pull me off my feet while I was planting myself.  Hence the prong.  But, again, I tested that prong on ME first.  And I remember coming here and asking for alternate methods to a choker (recommended in the AKC training video) and the halti worked great.....for awhile.....Perhaps if I didn't have issues with shoulder injuries and lack of upper body strength, and the fear of being injured again, I might have held out longer....the Easy Walk wasn't around yet when this was going on with Thor.....I honestly wasn't looking for a quick fix.....I just wanted to be able to walk my darned dog without risking more injury.
 
And again, I would LOVE to know what I did right with the younger dogs, who have NEVER seen a prong and have such lovely leash manners.  Sadly tho, when I do something really right, I'm not sure how I DID it.......[]

Let's see....I am one that believes in the puppy K classes, and basic obedience classes that most of us are familiar with.  Teaching basic commands using treats, and then weaning off has always worked for our dogs that we've had. 
 
I have used a squirt bottle for jumping up, occasional prong collar for vet trips, body blocking for jumping up, and that's about it.  This is when our Mastiffs were younger and into the jumping up.  The squirt bottle worked, as did the body blocking.  No longer necessary at this point. 
 
The only time I lay my hands on Kato is for bathing, brushing, scratching, and belly rubs.  He doesn't need any physical correcting, so therefore it's not necessary. 
 
However, I do agree with having discipline for dogs on a daily basis.  Meaning, NILIF, waiting to eat, waiting at the door, etc....I always practice those things, and he's learned very quickly.  It's pretty easy to teach a dog if he sits and waits calmly until I tell him it's "okay" to eat, he gets the food.  No brainer.  I use hand signals with commands so I can just flash a signal and he gets it. 
 
Some people like their dogs all over the house, on all the furniture and in their beds.  I'm not one of those people!  Therefore, we don't "invite" Kato to go anywhere he pleases, or on furniture.  He is totally fine with being on his own bed and space.  That's what he knows and complies. 
 
Yes, I like CM, but I also don't think he's cruel or treats dogs badly.  That's where the opinions differ.   

Because physical force engages oppositional reflex, often increases aggression, and produces dogs that "shut down" or don't offer behavior for fear of punishment (often seen as "obedience"), I prefer not to use it except in the most extreme cases, which, to me, involve the possibility of injury or death to a dog or a human. But, I fail to see how anyone needs force to train a proper recall, or to have a dog that will sit and stay.

Amen. That, more or less, is what I was trying to say in my convoluted way.

And, Anne, not to point out the obvious, but here's my issue with Murphy. I got him about a year ago, when he was 2 and he wasn't trained on anything, including his name. Trying to get him to focus on me instead of a squirrel is a monumental task. (However, he did focus on me last night when we walk past a stranger and I was so excited I nearly screamed; instead, I clicked and rewarded him and smiled the rest of that walk. He used to NEVER do that but Mudpuppy got me moving in that direction and it worked!)
 
My female, who I've since she was a puppy, can focus on me. And it's because I've trained her since she was a puppy. The adult dogs just take longer.
 
BTW, for all the posters/trainers--is it true that it takes just as long to retrain a behavior as the dog's been doing that behavior? So, if Murphy's been after squirrels for 2 years, will it take 2 years to retrain him? I've heard that before, too . . .

I have tried prong collars, shock collars, and choke collars on myself. The shock collar was by far the least painful. When set at a "typical" working level it feels like a bug is crawling on your skin. Mildly unpleasant. When used properly for training it is a very effective and humane tool that is used in much the same way a clicker is-- to communicate to the dog with excellent timing when he got it right or wrong.  People who go around exclaiming in horror at the very idea of a shock collar are clearly just uneducated.
 
Prong was not bad, but also hurt a lot more than the shock collar.
 
The choke collar was the worst. It hurt horribly and left bruises on my arm after I asked a trainer to give me a typical leash pop. I think THEY are barbaric and should be banned, not the other two types of training collars.

Mudpuppy, I appreciate your consistently empirical approach.