How Far Are You Willing to Go?

Mudpuppy was it a chain choke or a nylon choke?  Not that it matters much.  I think any training tool if used improperly is bad.  But if needed and used properly and minimally can do the trick and work.
I have seen where the shock collar on the highest setting still does nothing to detere a dog from improper behavior.  If the dog was leashed and had a choke or prong on it would have been corrected.  I have seen a prong collar make a dog with a pinched nerve go ballistic, but the same dog with a choke didn't have the same reaction.  I personally do not think that any of these options should be outlawed if used properly. 

Intense training to correct problem behaviour is much harder in every way to using such devices,no?

 
Yes, it is.  But when you've worked with your dog to the best of your abilities under circumstances that you CANNOT control, there has to be a point where you say "I have to do this or my dog is going to get himself killed."
 
I live in Suburbia, where you really don't see many rabbits until fall, when they're gathering food stores for winter.  During summer, you see the occassional hopper, but not often.  I have worked with my dog for close to a year using +R techniques, distraction work, etc etc.  No aversives.
 
It was ineffective!  I would have persisted longer with the positive methods, but #1 I was seeing no change in my dog, and #2 he sailed over a six foot fence for a blasted bun!  I'd rather cause my dog a brief moment of discomfort in which he stops and THINKS about his actions, than see him killed by a car or permanently maimed because he couldn't control his prey drive!
 
We're doing very VERY well in our training, and we're to the point where all he needs now is to hear the warning tone and he stops.  Sometimes he forgets, so I nick him.  The setting is on about level 3 (dropped from higher)...it's low, and let me tell you, this is a HARD dog when he is really in prey.  He blows off tough corrections.  I have him on reasonably low stim now and am getting a great response.
 
His reaction the first time when I nicked him?  He stopped dead in his tracks and looked at the rabbit.  "Nahhh!  That bun couldn't have done it!"  He proceeds forward, I nick him again. "....Maybe it was the rabbit."  Tries one more time to go after the rabbit, and he gets nicked again "Well geez! What the heck!"  And he turned around and came back to me.  He got lots of loving, cookies, and we had a good game of tuggy!  My dog did not scream, yelp, cow, or otherwise exhibit any type of distress, just an understanding that going after the rabbits was not acceptable.  He is a happy, healthy, well adjusted Shepherd who needs to understand that crittering is absolutely not acceptable.
 
By next month, I would very much like to take him out to my KC's fenced field without the e-collar on and see how he responds.  We'll see if our crittering problem is solved, or if he needs more proofing.
 
This dog calls off everything but rabbits.  I think that's a testament to how hard I've worked with my dog.  Squirrels, deer, chipmunks, birds, no issues!  But there's something about rabbits, and I won't risk his life so he doesn't feel a little bit of discomfort!  Call offs are not about returning to me.  They are about leaving the critter my dog is chasing alone.  If I say "Leave it!  Come!" That means leave that animal alone, and come where I can see you, not "come sit in front of me".  Sometimes I call my dog to me and I drop him, because it is a lot easier to see him getting up to try and critter again.
 
And to answer your question about what I'd do if I lived in a country that outlawed these tools?  I'd move.  Maybe the people in other countries do just fine without e-collars, but I would guess they are less kind to their dogs physically to get them to quit their crittering, and I would also guess that they end up with more roadkill dogs.  I won't allow my dog to be one of those.  The group of people like me who are RESPONSIBLE with their e-collars shouldn't be penalized because JQ Stupid thinks shocking the crap out of their dog is training.
 

I think this is an interesting question and one I was curious to see the answers to.

I appreciated fisher6000's link to that article about punishment from a dog's point of view, it was very informative and in my opinion hit the nail on the head.

This is what I consider to be acceptable forms of punishment, when used appropriately only:

- Loud, sharp voice
- Clapping hands to startle and get attention
- Brief timeouts
- I have had some luck with a water gun but I'm not using it much... I'm still not sure how I feel about that...
- Shaking pennies in a can has worked for me, again just a way to startle - eg. the dog is sticking her head in the kitchen garbage, I shake penny can, out she comes and doesn't go back to it.

Things I think are acceptable when needed, but haven't had to use myself:
 
- E-collars
- Prong collars
 
What I won't do:

- Hit or smack
- Grab the dog in any way while trying to enforce something
- Yank on collar

I'm no expert. But I want my dog to view human touching and contact as a completely positive experience. It is so important to me that the dog never sees a hand coming towards her as something negative that she should fear or defend herself against. I see alot of dogs that have been trained using physical techniques and you can sometimes see the results.... for example, the dog that had it's collar yanked around is defensive when people try to touch that area; the dog that was routinely smacked on the nose or head growls as a child tries to pat it on top of it's head; etc.

You raised several good points. My post about the remote collar was simply to answer someone's question of how it is used properly, and why such equipment was banned in places in Europe. And, that some trainers find it to be invaluable. Anne's method may work, too, and I wasn't denying that but my post was seen as a defense of e-collars. Which, of course, led your post to defend your use and success with the collar. If used properly, it is less invasive than other corrections. The dog doesn't identify it as "punishment" and certainly doesn't identify it with you. How could he? You were 50 feet away.

Perhaps, certainly, there is a difference in philosophy. If you could take a gander at some of the questions and observations posed in a course on animal behavior, you would find that most wild animals learn by avoidance. Sure, there is the reward for belonging and going with the status quo but they are not born knowing to not mess with alpha or stay away from the mountain lion, or whatever. Momma or alpha corrects them. Or they get in trouble and barely escape with their lives and avoid that scene again.

I, like you, think it's more humane to use some mild correction to train your dog to safety than to try and "treat" them when they are on the scent and have them ignore that because catching that bunny is more than a bite of whatever in your hand, though it may work for some. What you have is balanced training. The dog will, of course, prefer the treat over the funny tingle.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs but my question goes to the heart of why people feel it necessary to punish a dog physically.  Obviously it is to make the dog comply.  So, it is logical to ask how far someone would go to make that happen.  It also speaks, in some cases, to the lack of training tools that some owners seem equipped with. 

 
If you have read Click to Calm by Emma Parsons, you'll remember that she explains (I am paraphrasing!): "I would have hung my dog (Golden Retriever) by the tips of his toe nails if someone told me it would stop all of his aggression tendancies...  Of course I knew it would cause pain but if it made the aggression go away, I would have done it without question".   Now of course she is a huge clicker pusher and can't imagine that she was ever willing to ever hurt her dog for the sake of having him well-behaved.  She did have an old school trainer work with him (which made his aggression worse after he held the dog by a choke and dropped him on the ground) - SO I have to wonder, had this trainer made the dogs aggression better/disappear instead of making it worse, would she still have turned to positive reinforcement only????  We are not all born with an innate sense of hot to train dogs and unfortunately, many of us tend to be reactive instead of proactive when it comes to dogs (since for many families, they aren't the first piorities).
 
Aside from not understanding dog behaviour, how they learn and not being prepared to commit to socialization/training, I think a big part of the problem is desperation (on the part of the owner).  They want the problem fixed and fast.  I can't think of anyone on the board who is like this and I certainly don't think that just because someone needs to use a prong or raise their voice or tap their dog on the nose that they are doing some great harm/injustice.   

Honestly, I wouldn't have cared if it had taken me a year to get Thor to walk nicely on lead, just so long as I saw SOME progress..... other than my butt being dragged down the street.  I tried everything and then some, and even used a long enough line that I could put it around my waist before clipping it onto him....and folks, I weighed in at CLOSE to 200 lbs in those days so he had the pulling thing down to a science!  I wasn't demanding FAST results.....just some PROGRESS towards results..... 
 
I hate that I needed to resort to a prong, but sometimes you've just gotta do what you've gotta do.  It was that, or stop walking him altoghether, and to me that really was not an option.
 
YET, when I do suggest a prong, say over an e collar or a choker, I always suggest that folks get themselves trained in the proper use of a prong.....it isn't about causing pain and that shouldn't EVER be a part of training.  A little discomfort I can live with IF that's the last tool in the box.
 
And Xeph?  Knowing how stubborn MY shepherds can be, I can understand you doing what you feel to do.

I wasn't demanding FAST results.....just some PROGRESS towards results..... 

I hate that I needed to resort to a prong, but sometimes you've just gotta do what you've gotta do. 

BINGO!  You hit the nail on the head Glenda.  I hate that I had to resort to an e-collar, but it was a case of "Do it or the dog is gonna end up dead."

In your case with the prong it was a case of "Do it, or my dog and/or I will end up injured."  Sometimes a little discomfort is neccessary for the safety of dog and handler.  When I can use +R, I do, but I need to use ALL the tools in my toolbox, not just the ones that look pretty and safe to others.
 
And actually Ron, I was responding to Edie ^_^  Your post was well written.  I don't like to defend my use of the e-collar, but people think they're evil.  I'll admit, I used to be one of em, but they can be lifesavers, literally and figuratively.  I don't want to use the e-collar as a crutch, and plan on getting Strauss working as reliably as is possible with a dog without him wearing it.

I don't want to use the e-collar as a crutch, and plan on getting Strauss working as reliably as is possible with a dog without him wearing it.

 
In some of her posts, KennelKeeper has pointed out that, with some dogs at some point, the e-collar is no longer necessary. Especially the ones that tone, then stim. They learn to avert at the tone and a stim is no longer necessary.
 
And again, the proper level of stimulus will not cause damage or even pain. It produces an odd sensation. If it's causing pain, the level is too high. Also, some dogs levels of stim adjust. It's not uncommon to start at a low level and then progress to a lower level, once the dog knows it's a boundary or aversion. It's not meant to cause pain, just as a properly adjusted prong, with enough time for the dog to get used to it, does not cause pain, just a sensation. In fact, I would say any method that cause pain or damage should never be used.
 
To agree with Anne, if a dog cannot respond to +R, clicker, prong, e-collar or anything short of drastic physical pain, which would only exacerbate the problem, then the dog should be PTS.  I also agree, with limited time and resources, that they are better of with a dog without issues, which means that shelters would have to step up their Euth schedules and PTS the problem dogs.
 
But there are dogs that are not a problem, just prey-driven.

Used properly, a dog trains very quickly and it is invaluable for field and hunting dogs. They can range out of their ability to hear you. If they are upwind and tracking a scent, they won't smell the treat in your hand. You need something that reminds them to recall.

For people who are really stuck and who think field and hunting dogs cant be trained without e-collars,they should visit some of the european training sites,particularly the british ones.Ofcourse you'll get the morons who use negative techniques,but the vast majority use positive training,they have no choice as giving dogs electric shocks and/or using devices that are meant to specifically cause pain(prong) are outlawed. I read recently that a couple of countries have banned choke chains,just cant remember now which countries they were [X(]

Xeph i would be very interested to hear how your dogs does with the bunny chasing after the threat of electric shock is gone.I genuinely hope it does work and you can toss it in the bin soon,but on the other hand what happens when he realises that as soon as that collars off, so is the shock?? I've heard of this happening time and time again,and the poor dogs are relegated to a life of shocks everytime they go out for a walk

The word i used above that got sensored was m*r*ns [sm=blush.gif] I never knew that word was classed as a swear word.

I've heard of this happening time and time again,and the poor dogs are relegated to a life of shocks everytime they go out for a walk

 
The people that end up with dogs like this are the ones that use the collars incorrectly.  The collar stays on Strauss at all times presently, but the remote stays where nobody but ME can access it.  Eventually I plan on moving from the collar tone/shock to me using a whistle/shock.  This way the whistle that I have can replace the tone of the collar, and the dog figures out "Oh oh! Better stop!" And come back.
 
It's been done before with no problems, I don't expect it to be a problem for my dog.  And the walk thing...well, not much of an issue since Strauss and I don't do the neighborhood walk thing.

And the walk thing...well, not much of an issue since Strauss and I don't do the neighborhood walk thing.

Neither do we..B*O*R*I*N*G! I take my dogs to woods,beach and such where i can let them run free.Isnt taking your dog anywhere out of it's yard considered a walk?

I think a walk involves both of us walking o.o!  I just take my dog to club and let him run in the open field.  Sometimes we play ball, and sometimes we do a bit of trackin or obedience work

I think in general training one should attempt and plan to use purely positive methods. I can't imagine why any dog should need collar pops or an ecollar to learn how to perform basic on-leash obedience or learn general manners such as sit on command and don't jump on the guests. Most training "fails" because the owner doesn't do enough proofing of the command. Just because puppy sits in the quiet kitchen doesn't mean puppy will be able to immediately sit at a crowded exciting county fair-- and anyone who immediately resorts to some type of punishment or aversive method with this poor puppy is being very unfair.
You should only consider aversive methods if your positive methods have failed and the behavior is truly obnoxious or potentially life-threatening. 

As mudpuppy had mentioned, I think a lot of problems stem from owners who expect way too much from their dogs without giving the guidance first.
 
So many people yell at their dog for barking, leash-pop the dog for leash pulling, etc. But they missed a key step - showing the dog what it is they actually want from him! *Disclaimer - I am truly not referring to any of you, it sounds like whatever training method you've used has been thought out and employed for good reasons. Just the general public that I'm talking about... people I know in my own life.
 
Anyway back on topic - if you don't make it clear to your dog that you want him to walk beside you without pulling, all the leash-popping in the world is not going to clarify that. Not only is it confusing for the dog, they have no idea what to expect from you and that can create trust issues.