How Far Are You Willing to Go?

ORIGINAL: ron2

quote:

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

What if, instead of "popping" the guy for watching porn, you rewarded him with an incompatible behavior, like making love to his wife?



Because sex addiction is a psychological problem.

Any woman who has lived with a man with this obsession/addiction will tell you that she will never be enough to fill this bottomless pi

The problem I have with the quoted analogy of correcting a man's viewing of porn

edited, I just reread the quoted part. Sex between humans is supposed to be of equal consent. The wife is not a "treat" to be handed out and, quite frankly, a number of wives are disinterested in sex for a number of reasons and would not be a willing participant in this +R exercise. Also, the reason this analogy won't work is because women have the control in sex, in our culture.

For most guys, the only time they don't want sex is when they are puking, fever-achy, stuck in bed or on the commode ill and even then, it still crosses their mind as something they want to get back to. Whereas a perfectly healthy woman can turn it down if there are no candles lit, or whatever the reason. And it doesn't matter what the reason is. When a woman says no, she means no. Women have the power.

This has been used in history. The Lysistrata sanction. It works sometimes.

 
Actually, I do see what you're saying ron.  Empires and kings have fallen, great works of art have been inspired, and men have been induced to paint the house....all for the nookie.
 
Anyone heard of Cleopatra?  Do you think she seduced Roman Emporers for her health?  Of course not, she used sex to gain power.  It has been done since the beginning of time and it continues in households and execuative offices around the world to this day.
 
 

Oh my goodness, we're talking about sex on a thread about how aversive we want to get training our dogs? I've been away for two days and came back to read this and it's kinda bizarre, guys.[]

From a biological perspective, women have more control over sex than men because they have expensive gametes. As my beloved supervisor said to us one day, "Sperm is very cheap. I've made a few thousand of them just while I've been sitting here and it took hardly any effort at all." From a purely biological perspective, it behooves a woman to be very picky about whose sperm she allows near her eggs because she's the one that's going to be making massive investments into the product. It behooves a guy to spread his seed liberally because he isn't the one that gets lumped with looking after a baby. Someone has to be picky for the species to remain strong and adaptable, and it falls to women purely because by some quirk of evolution, they're the ones that fall pregnant.

I believe Ron was speaking from a purely biological perspective.

Some male animals that are not humans rape, but females can develop all sorts of tricky ways to thwart a male that forced himself on her, so for the most part the girls retain some level of choice in the matter. Males can be picky too, but usually only bother if they're going to make a big investment in the offspring.

And that's quite enough of all that sex talk, I think. [sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif]

As for obsessions in dogs, I think the best way to approach them is with a very large amount of patience, time and treats and gradually desensitise them.

Lets see if I can get you to think about adversive training another way.
I know most people think it's not as important to train a toy as it is a real dog, because they can't do as much damage if an attack occurs. However we are talking here about basic well needed training for safety and being able to live together.
What do you think about me yanking my 4-7lb dogs up off the ground by his/ her leash, or stepping on her/his leash, or scruffing or tapping on the nose, or a light kick to get her/ his attention.  A prong, e-collar or choke. Do you know the damage that would be done to these dogs both physically and emotionally. The closest human comparison I can make would be to a newborn baby in size.  My dogs still need to know a reliable recall, and they need down and stay. If I have no other choice, (and I don't) but to train them using only +R why can't everybody at least give it a genuine try?

Ron, FWIW, I got completely where you were coming from and I didn't feel that you were in any way being disrespectful.
 
Yesterday I took advantage of the snow and really took the opportunity to explore the woods and the fields around us.  Now understand that this is the FIRST time I've gone really deep into the woods because of my stupid fear of the slithery things.
 
We took the dogs in groups of three and really went deep exploring.  In fact in one direction we walked the two miles to the nearest property backing us.....My crew saw pheasants, wild turkeys and deer.  The ONLY things they wanted to chase were the pheasants...I told them leave it on everything, but the pheasants for some reason were more tempting, perhaps because they don't see those as often (what I wouldn't have given for a shotgun about then!  Mmmmmmm, those birds are TASTY)  Know what it took to call them off those birds?  Shock collar zap??  Nope.  A simple EH EH, come.  That's it.  Now, we are talking about german shepherds with a high prey drive.  I have NEVER used a shock collar on any dog, so they sure didn't return to me because they had a fear of pain, nor did I take TREATS with me and since they can smell them at 1000 paces they returned because I ASKED them to.  That is what positive reinforcement training can do.
 
I'm not a trainer.  I don't have tons of tools to pull out to train my dogs.  I just use gentle methods that make sense to me.  And, gosh, they work.

Maybe the porn example was not the right choose [&:]

ORIGINAL: debv53
What do you think about me yanking my 4-7lb dogs up off the ground by his/ her leash, or stepping on her/his leash, or scruffing or tapping on the nose, or a light kick to get her/ his attention. 

This is when the problems start, for a clear misunderstanding of behaviorists methods, for exaggerations and for placing violence into the techniques even when they dont belong there

Its not the same a leash pop that  "yanking my 4-7lb dogs up off the ground", behaviorists DO NOT use violence, DO NOT use scruffing or tapping in the nose, those corrections are used by ignorant people who never had any understanding of how to make a dog stop doing something, i dont think there is one single person in this forum that uses ANY of those techniques you mentioned before, that kind of people is not even interested in belong to any dogs forum

So since nobody uses those techniques here i think everybody here will agree with you that those examples are wrong []

What about MY examples of what postive reinforcement training can do?  What about the perfect recall of MY crew, trained totally with +R?  Why do they never go more than 50 feet ahead of us without stopping and turning around and WAITING or running back to us without the first word from us?  Is it perhaps NOT because I'm the treat dispensing butler/roommate but rather that I have trained them to wait once they reach a certain distance and wait they do?  Or how about when they would leave the trail and start into the woods and I'd quietly tell them Eh Eh and they'd come right back to the trail?
 
We just came in from our romp again today and had the same lovely results we had yesterday...and I'm not even remotely surprised.  My dogs behave beautifully off lead thanks to +R training.

So since nobody uses those techniques here i think everybody here will agree with you that those examples are wrong

Did you read any of the other posts??? if you go back to the first page and put any of those things in a find on this page search you will find them, and the hanging by the leash is in tons of other topics and posts. Give me a break.
I'm glad I could help clairfy that for you[]

What about MY examples of what postive reinforcement training can do? What about the perfect recall of MY crew, trained totally with +R? Why do they never go more than 50 feet ahead of us without stopping and turning around and WAITING or running back to us without the first word from us? Is it perhaps NOT because I'm the treat dispensing butler/roommate but rather that I have trained them to wait once they reach a certain distance and wait they do? Or how about when they would leave the trail and start into the woods and I'd quietly tell them Eh Eh and they'd come right back to the trail?

 
That's just it Glenda, they don't care about our proof or examples.

Apparently not, Deb.  We're just treat dispensing butler/roommate types with extraordinarily well behaved dogs. []

You know what I find really frustrating is the close mindedness. Most of the trainers and owners that are now using +R say that they used all of the negative stuff too, but that now they know better and so they do better, but have you ever heard any of the other crowd say hmmm ,maybe I'll give it a try, if not for anything else but to prove us treat dispensing butler/roommate types wrong!

ORIGINAL: debv53

So since nobody uses those techniques here i think everybody here will agree with you that those examples are wrong

Did you read any of the other posts??? if you go back to the first page and put any of those things in a find on this page search you will find them, and the hanging by the leash is in tons of other topics and posts. Give me a break.
I'm glad I could help clairfy that for you[]

Oh yeah i bet they talk about it but show me just ONE thats says to "hanging" by the leash is ok

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Apparently not, Deb.  We're just treat dispensing butler/roommate types with extraordinarily well behaved dogs.

http://locator.apahelpcenter.org/

There you go, you can find a psycholigist near you in this webpage who can help you with your trauma of being called "eat dispensing butler/roommate" [], i hope it works because it seems that affected you a lot []

I couldn't agree with you more. 
 
I get such pleasure from my crew especially when we're able to get out into the woods and fields.  Just watching them run and play is pretty cool...and knowing that I don't have to worry about them romping too far away makes it even better.

Oh yeah i bet they talk about it but show me just ONE thats says to "hanging" by the leash is ok

CM did with that Jindo

No offense Glenda, as I really respect your views and opinions, but if your "crew" was so perfectly behaved, why then, can you only take 3 at a time?
 
It's amazing that you were able to happen across wild turkeys! They are usually very "illusive" with very keen eyesight. Deer are also very skiddish and you will not usually happen across them either because they know you are there LONG before you would ever see them and skidaddle, especially with dogs in tow, which deer see as predators.
 
Also, I believe you had stated before (a pretty long time ago) that you use some other methods such as holding (physically restraining) and using a loud voice ("knock it OUT") when they weren't listening. That's not +R, but it does sound better to say "totally +R", doesn't it.
 
This is not intended to be a personal attack, just a point I want to make that even the best of us can and do use other methods (whether we wish to admit it or not). It's understandable that sometimes we waiver off a path when things get overwhelming, but it doesn't take much to get right back on it either, when you have a good foundation.
 
I am not "bashing" anyones views of training or their choice to train in a certain way. I do use +R, but also use other methods. Positive reinforcement does work in alot of cases, but if you have had no experience using other training methods with dogs (say hunting dogs, seeing eye dogs, police dogs, etc), then you really can't make a qualified judgement.
Then you have those that make statements like "what I find really frustrating is the close mindedness"  which is so typical of those that don't have a clue about training using other methods for purpose-dogs. You (generally speaking) can't understand the methods and their purpose, if you have never HAD too. So you are making asumptions based on the some "ideal" world training where we can train our dogs and feel good about ourselves while doing it (self-gratification).
It is MHO, that those who are accusatory of others having close minds are, in fact, the ones with closed minds. There is no one here that supports the "other" methods of training, that say +R is a bad, evil thing. We all use it to some extent, but it's the totally +R people that are slinging mud in the faces of the people who use other methods and trying to make us out to be MONSTERS.
 

kennel_keeper, where do you live?  Glenda is in northern Michigan, a wildlife paradise.  Heck, I'm in Massachusetts, and wild turkeys hang out in my yard, I see them on the roadsides, and I even saw two females with poults at the edge of the industrial park in Gloucester (a city).  Deer are so plentiful here that if you don't occasionally run into them, that's unusual - I went out to feed my horse about two weeks ago and there was a large doe lying under a bush at the back of my paddock. 
And, quite frankly, I would have no problem with people disagreeing with +R if they understand it properly in the first place - which, sad to say, most of the people who bash it here do not.  If they did, they would not call people "treat dispensing butlers" any more than I call police K9 trainers baton-wielding cavemen.  But, here I am constantly confronted by people who blindly follow a TV guru, whose methods they aren't even totally familiar with (so how would he train an obedience retrieve, or anything else - how to walk nicely in heel, how to lie down, etc.?).  Yet, they refuse to even consider learning the mechanics of clicker training so that they can speak intelligently on the subject.  It's like saying "I disagree - just because..." without any proper understanding of what they are refuting.  At least some of us have received instruction in both methods, and have made an informed choice.