How Far Are You Willing to Go?

Anne, I live in rual North Carolina and I'm a wildlife rehabber, so I am familiar with wildlife behavior. Your and others "sightings" of wildlife's comings and goings is of their (the wildlifes) own valition. They do move around and you will see them, but take 3 BIG dogs and a human out into the wildife's environment, is a different story. While I'm not doubting that some may encounter wildlife on occasion while in the woods, I don't think that is common place. Yes, I have deer come into my yard (mostly my rehabbed fawns that I RAISED and released) and they even come up to my kennels and are not afraid of the dogs, BUT they are habituated to them and approach on their OWN terms. IF, though, I was to take my dogs out into the woods, I doubt that we could happen upon them (or turkeys for that matter).
 
I see very few (maybe one) bashing +R here and while some may agree with CM's methods, I don't think they totally discount other methods. I know that some may be very passionate about their training "choice" and that's great, but there's no reason anyone should "bash" anothers choice because you don't agree with it.
Also, Anne, you stated you have a degree in Pyschology (wish I could say the same []), so wouldn't it make more sense to apply some to "convert" the nay-sayers of +R?

Interesting that turkeys are so illusive where you live.  I often have to stop and let a bunch of them cross the 2 lane highway.  When I say that we live in the boonies, I am NOT kidding.  We are surrounded by  very dense and tall pines and large open fields bordered by enormous stands of pines.  While we live OFF a fairly busy road, there is next to nothing out here.....I counted one day just for spits and grins and there are a whooping 12 houses in the 5.5 miles to town.  Between us and the road is an old school house.....MOST mornings the turkeys are in the "yard" there.  And deer?  My word it's not unusual for me to sit on the deck and watch a few dozen graze in the field across the road.  And yes, even if they are hiding in the woods, they do tend to flee through the open fields when we approach with the dogs.
 
Why only three at a time?  Couple reasons. First three is my comfort level.  Used to be I wouldn't take more than two at a time, then I added in a third and just make two trips.  However, regardless of how well behaved they are, when you up the numbers of dogs you also up the possibility of the old "pack mentality" kicking in. As I have always said, I'm NOT a trainer and I don't have that much confidence in ME and my abilities, much more so than not having confidence in THEIR behavior.  The second reason is purely selfish.  I happen to LIKE having a live husband and walking the dogs is the ONLY way I get him out for some good exercise.  If I were to take ALL of them in one walk, he wouldn't be willing to walk longer and further and he NEEDS to get exercise on a regular basis.  I can get him on the exercise bike a couple times in an evening, but his job is not at all physical, so I "use" the dogs needing a walk to be sure that he gets some good exercise on the weekends.  And, honestly, taking ALL the dogs at once would make him more tense.....considering that he JUST had angio to clear four blockages in his heart arteries...one that was 99%, I'm not anxious to do things that are going to increase his stress.
 
I might be crazy but I'm not certifiable and I'm sure not gonna try to physically restrain a german shepherd!   I'm not sure where you got that, unless it was something totally unrelated to training.  I, yes, have raised my voice and told them to "knock it the hell-o off" when they are fussing at one another, or told them "that will do" but since I don't often raise my voice it doesn't take much of an increase in volume to get their attention.  I actually was referring to installing recall in the post you are referencing in this thread...that my crew have wonderful recall without using aversives, but if you'd like to take that further, no problem.
 
It bothers me to no end that I missed something and needed to resort to using a prong with Thor, so there ya go, that's the absolute worst I've ever done in training my dogs.  And I've often said that I wish to heck that I knew what I'd done RIGHT with the others so that I can use that with future pups.
 
There is no one here that supports the "other" methods of training, that say +R is a bad, evil thing.  Perhaps not, but why then was I called "nothing more than a roommate" and "the butler" and a treat dispenser?  Is that NOT an attack on my preferred method of training?  Were those comments NOT meant to make me feel like less of a leader? 
 
As far as the +R'ers slinging mud, well read my comments in the last couple sentences and then tell me that it's ONLY the +R'ers who are "wrong".  The worst I've seen said is why NOT try the less aversive ways FIRST?  I believe that to be a valid point.

Since I'm practically being accused of lying about the wildlife we see, I'll try to remember to take a camera next time.  By the way, not sure about other states, but HERE we have a law prohibiting deer hunting with dogs...that being because hunters would take the dogs to flush and run the deer.......no dispute on the pheasants tho?

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Anne, I live in rual North Carolina and I'm a wildlife rehabber, so I am familiar with wildlife behavior. Your and others "sightings" of wildlife's comings and goings is of their (the wildlifes) own valition. They do move around and you will see them, but take 3 BIG dogs and a human out into the wildife's environment, is a different story. While I'm not doubting that some may encounter wildlife on occasion while in the woods, I don't think that is common place. Yes, I have deer come into my yard (mostly my rehabbed fawns that I RAISED and released) and they even come up to my kennels and are not afraid of the dogs, BUT they are habituated to them and approach on their OWN terms. IF, though, I was to take my dogs out into the woods, I doubt that we could happen upon them (or turkeys for that matter).

I see very few (maybe one) bashing +R here and while some may agree with CM's methods, I don't think they totally discount other methods. I know that some may be very passionate about their training "choice" and that's great, but there's no reason anyone should "bash" anothers choice because you don't agree with it.
Also, Anne, you stated you have a degree in Pyschology (wish I could say the same []), so wouldn't it make more sense to apply some to "convert" the nay-sayers of +R?

 
You need to come to our area.  We have deer EVERYWHERE.  I used to ride my horse out in the woods (pretty far out) on National Lakeshore trails and I saw a TON of deer.  I would see at least one deer everytime I went out there, often more.  This is not just during the dawn and dusk hours, but all throughout the day.
 
There is are 50+ acres that I'll sometimes walk Sally on and it is very wild and wooded, and it is, in fact, quite common to see deer there, and that is with Sally on a hundred foot line, not walking right next to me.

A friend of mine runs an "out and about" training class that goes through one of our state parks, and it's quite common to come across deer there, even with a class full of dogs - it's one of the reasons we go there. []

I'm not saying you are wrong about your area, kennel_keeper, just that others may have a different experience.  The deer here are not hunted as a rule, so they are more complacent about humans than they should be perhaps.  We also have coyotes stare at us from fifty to a hundred feet away on occasion.  I find their tracks in the snow during the winter, and they aren't more than twenty feet from my barn doors, although they are certainly more elusive than the deer, preferring to hide at the edges of the woodsy areas.

Glenda, I will say it again, I do value you as a i-dog member as I believe you have much to offer and hope that you don't take what I say personally. It's really not meant to be []  I think you have done a great job with you dogs and all the others you have help though the years.
 
Anne, you are a great asset to i-dog as well, and hope that I continue to learn from you. You add such a great perspective to training and I'm sorry that you feel you have to constantly defend your chosen method.
 
While I understand that there are bad feelings for some inconsiderate things that have been said, there is a time to take those for what they are worth and move on. Why do you let it bother you that some are so inconsiderate, especially when you KNOW it's not true.
 
I, for one, get alot out of the difference's of opinion. It opens my eyes and helps me to understand others positions. However, we are adults and should be able to distinquish the difference between those who intend to "argue" and those who truely want honest debate. Debate is such a great way to learn and I would hope that the exchange of information can continue without the hard feelings and personal name calling.

kennel_keeper, while I do have a baccalaureate degree, I am not a psychologist, and am not qualified to do therapy on people who disagree with me. []

Trying to tell people that you have a better way to raise dogs is a lot like telling them you have a better way to raise their kids - usually meets with pretty stiff resistance.  It's the old "spanking never hurt me" routine ('cept for ron, who I think agrees that corporal punishment was somewhat harmful to him). But, as I always say, I'm available for anyone here who wants free advice - and if they want it without the naysayers, they can always PM. []  And, I don't feel I have to "defend" my training method, I'm just open to debate the effectiveness of any method. And, I prefer that people have correct information about how a method is correctly applied, before they either defend or discount it.

The problem comes into play here because not everyone agrees that “you have a better way” or at least not 100% of the time.  Maybe that#%92s why there is such backlash with those statements.  If someone were to say, no you don#%92t!!  They would be met with accusations of abuse either physically or psychologically and it just isn#%92t the case.  I know you believe it to be true but some of us don#%92t.  Your point comes across loud and clear, that you have well behaved dogs without using any other methods but +R and we should all do the same and avoid damaging our dogs.  Personally, I have the same dog you have if you choose to believe it or not.

that you have well behaved dogs without using any other methods but +R and we should all do the same and avoid damaging our dogs.

But so have i,i dont think i have ever punished my dogs for anything.Like Glenda,i'm not quite sure what it is i have done with my dogs,but whatever it was it has worked.I just cant fathom using pain or discomfort to make a dog do what you want it to.My dogs would love the chance to run after wildlife if given the chance,but all i've ever had to do was say "ah-ah" in a firm voice.Sometimes i'll let them chase the ducks down at the pond,but they'll look to me first for more or less permission,if you can call it that.

I'm a firm believer in easy going owners make for easy going dogs.High strung owners usually have high strung dogs,loud mouths most often  have yappy,snappy dogs. Owners should take an honest look within before trying to figure out why their dogs do the things they do,has some of their personality rubbed off onto their dogs?,and if they have to resort to shock tactics or feel they need to inflict pain,stand over tactics or discomfort on to their dogs then IMHO they're doing something wrong.

For me,raising dogs wasnt much different to raising my kids,i used more or less the same strategies.I smacked my kids(never smacked my dogs) a few times before realising that they then didnt do as i asked out of respect,but out of fear of being punished,i dont think dogs think too differently to children in that respect. I also didnt want to use crates for my dogs,only on an as needed basis for the first weeks at home with me,and for the past 20 or so years i havnt needed to crate any of my dogs past the initial house training period.My dogs never see a collar and lead unless we are walking to our destination where they are let off asap,or when we go for a rare visit to the vet,and yet they dont pull or lunge and yet they've never been "trained"
 to walk on a leash.I like to think my dogs are easy going and laid back,because i am and this transfers on to them,i've had dogs of all different breeds and sizes over the years,and the methods i use,kindness,patience,and a big sense of humour really do work.The thought of using aversive/negative methods has never,ever crossed my mind,for me a gentle leader would be about as aversive as i'de ever get.

I've met loads of dogs who's owners have used negative training methods on their dogs,like strangling them on  choker chains,pulling them around,shock collars,scruffing etc etc and you can almost see the lack of spirit and life in these dogs eyes.Compared to the dogs who have had nothing but kind methods used,the difference really is obvious [&:]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  If I can take a dog like Willow was and never use a choke collar, never use a shock collar or any other such "tool" then I would think that it would be possible for almost anyone.  I doubt too many people are taking in unsocialized, sick, aggressive difficult breeds these days.  In fact, most people here make it a point to say that they got their dog from a "reputable" breeder. 

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

It's amazing that you were able to happen across wild turkeys! They are usually very "illusive" with very keen eyesight. Deer are also very skiddish and you will not usually happen across them either because they know you are there LONG before you would ever see them and skidaddle, especially with dogs in tow, which deer see as predators.

kennel_keeper, that sounds a little to me like you really are accusing Glenda of lying. When I was in remote northern Mexico doing field work, I was coming across wild turkeys and deer pretty much on a daily basis. I thought it was totally amzing because I'd never seen either before. [] They certainly did know most of the time that I was around before I saw them, but didn't see me as something they ought to run away from unless I happened to startle them. It was the wild cats that I knew were all over the place but never once glimpsed. When a wild animal wants to, it can indeed be a long way from where you are before you even imagined it was there, but it seems to me that most animals don't bother and it's sometimes easy to surprise the ones that do.

Over here, we see kangaroos almost daily when we go walking in the nearby bushland. My dog chases them if I give her half a chance and they still won't take off until they really have to. But then, roos aren't afraid of very much at all, so not a great comparison.

Anyway, I do use positive reinforcement and I certainly find it gratifying because I feel better about myself because I'm being extra nice to my dog. What's wrong with that? I like being nice to my dog. I like being nice to all animals. When it comes down to it, our animals can't tell us outright if they're cool with certain training methods, so I just err on the side of caution and try to be gentle first. I don't much understand why someone would think it was better to skip the gentle attempt, but that's okay with me because I'm not them.

I feel like pointing out that the accusations made against +R trainers were made by just one or two people who didn't seem to understand what set various methods apart and what unified them. For the most part, people have been pretty tolerant.

ORIGINAL: willowchow
 I doubt too many people are taking in unsocialized, sick, aggressive difficult breeds these days.  In fact, most people here make it a point to say that they got their dog from a "reputable" breeder. 

 
I actually think more and more people are doing this. Many people truely enjoy learning how to help a troubled dog and find they have a knack for it.
 
My latest dog came from our local shelter terrified to the point of shaking and submissive peeing, so jumpy she would bolt and hide if you dropped a feather on the floor, and so afraid of water that the sound of the shower going made her lock-up in fear.
 
But her training was flawless! Perfect little sits, perfect little heels...all done as if she was appeasing me to keep from harm. So very sad and I saw it for what it was. She had been afraid of her owner and had been struck with an object.
 
She's come so far and is quite an amazing little gal! My BF says she is "spooky smart". She's mostly Catahoula Leopard Dog which is a rimative breed and wary to begin with. Her ability to provide a steady influence with other dogs is big help to me 
 
There are some of us who do adopt the more challenging cases, and where I live it's almost a status thing to say you got a shelter dog and gave it a second chance.

IF, though, I was to take my dogs out into the woods, I doubt that we could happen upon them (or turkeys for that matter).

I don't find it so hard to believe....
I live in the city so I don't see wild turkeys very often, however, I did come across a few while taking Natalie to the park. Natalie was yapping her head off but I still managed to get a few photos of them.


 
Last month I went camping. There were about 10 wild turkeys hanging out behind my campsite....about 75 ft away from us. There were 3 humans and 3 dogs at the campsite.

Angelique--Good for you, but what your describing and what I'm describing are two different things.  Willow would of never made it out of a shelter alive.

Anyway, regardless good for you. 
 
As for the wild turkeys, they aren't that illusive.  My parents have caught them many times in the yard and have been able to get the camera for pictures. 

Isnt is odd,,, the posts on this thread are obviously positive reenforcement for some.  The number of entries confirms that.  Now lets look at the tone of some of those messages.  It seems to me, it is not the tone of the messages that is maintaining the high level of interaction.  Therefore, arguing a point via email is a positive reenforcer for a number of the folks who have posted a response on this topic.
 
I wonder how many of us have had some emotional responses that would often be termed negative while engaged in this discussion.  I offer the observation that the only way to see it as positive is its effect on behavior. 
 
As a canine example:If a dog goes bouncing around in joy when he sees a prong collar, seems to me that animal has been positively reenforced to the point that collar has become an SD for a walk or work.
 
Second observation, it seems some of the words used with people are pretty punishing (at least they way they are read without the body cues of conversation).  Can you still be purely positive if you dont use the same approaches with people?  []