Too much Aggression; please help me. or leave suggestions :(

Trust me, I wasn't ignoring you, I just saw this post and I was out of town over the weekend.
 
Now, you want to define "bash" in a forum, as if you've never encountered it before.
 
Okay, A number of +R sources don't truly address aggression and are doing a disservice by not at least giving reasons for aggression. A number of degreed professionals are leading away from the wolf-type heritage of the dog so that they can say that we don't need to look to wolves for clues to dog behavior, and I think that's erroneous. Some go as far as to say that dogs don't exhibit the behavior they exhibit. If I say they are full of crap and couldn't cut their way out of a wet paper bag with two sharp knives, am I bashing? A number of +R sources require that you control directly where your dog may or may not sit, regardless of behavior, yet CM is the control freak? Am I bashing, now? What if I say it's culling if I describe how some +R sources would rather drug or euthanize a dog if it won't respond to purely +R programs? What if I say that I haven't seen any of these experts turn a fighting dog into a CGC that can walk off-leash? Is that bashing?
 

Deb, come on in! But, please BYOB as mine is running a little low.

I got us covered.

Hot DANG!!
 
This is too funny.  I was talking to my oldest son on the phone earlier.  He had a procedure on a couple disks called IDET last Tuesday and is still home recovering....and also enjoying his pain meds.  We're chatting away and suddenly he says..."Ma, I think you need another valium....you're getting too lucid for me to keep up!"[]

A behaviorist is someone who has a Master's or PhD in ethology, psychology, animal behavior, zoology, etc

 
I thought Ethology and Animal Behavior were basically the same thing. Ethology being the "Study of Animal Behavior".

You may not be bashing him directly but you are certainly doing it with inuendo and plain old misinformation.  

Where is the inuendo and where is the misinformation??

Actually when I was referring to "Harsh" training techniques I was referring to Leerburg, not anyone else.  Anything you might have read into my post is completely wrong.  I was, on purpose, using no inuendo.

I told the OP to read up on the methods and that not all methods work with all dogs.  Hmmm if you want me to search other threads I can show you where those same words are used to DEFEND Mr. Milan. 

Richard all you want to do is stir the pot and create doubt. 

    It's all about leadership through proper walking

Proper walking is only ONE way to show leadership.  There are dozens of other ways to demonstrate leadership.

If most of the newbies who come here with problems would understand his philosophy and walk their dog properly and not spoil it they would solve most of the problems that come up on this forum.

If you were to understand and acknowledge that "his philosophy" is not the only one that will solve most of the problems that come up on this forum and stop trying to defend CM's honor (mistakenly I might add, seeing as how I wasn't even referring to him and I'm sick of this debate) then possibly we might be able to have a better debate and learn something in the process.

To detract from that simple message and try to change behaviors without first establishing leadership is just a band aid that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

And to use techniques that one learns from a TV show will require the use of band-aids if one isn't careful.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

A behaviorist is someone who has a Master's or PhD in ethology, psychology, animal behavior, zoology, etc

I thought Ethology and Animal Behavior were basically the same thing. Ethology being the "Study of Animal Behavior".

Ethology is the study of animal behavior in natural conditions, as a branch of zoology, I believe.  If you said it was the study of animal behavior you would still be correct, just as you would be correct if you said cynology was the study of animal behavior (since it refers specifically to the study of canine behavior).

ORIGINAL: Xerxes


If you were to understand and acknowledge that "his philosophy" is not the only one that will solve most of the problems that come up on this forum and stop trying to defend CM's honor (mistakenly I might add, seeing as how I wasn't even referring to him and I'm sick of this debate) then possibly we might be able to have a better debate and learn something in the process.

We know there is other ways and Cesar's is not the only one, we know +R techniques can work for some situations, the difference is that we accept that, other people here try to convince others that not only Cesar's way is not the way to follow but actually is the wrong way at all and try to convince them not to learn his techniques by exaggerating them and talking negative about them

Actually i think that some +R people are the ones that dont accept other methods since they are the ones always calling names to Cesar techniques

Example? i was caught in a bad moment and called +R techniques as "treat dispensers" methods, i apologized for that already but imagine if everytime somebody brings +R techniques to the topic i just keep calling them that way? the people who pratice +R would feel attacked right? well that happens everytime somebody call the methods that work for me names like "bullying methods", "terrified methods", "hanging methods", etc.

Cesar Millan comes up really often and every single time those pseudo names come out, if +R people dont like their methods to be called "treat dispensers" methods then dont exaggerate and call bad names to the methods that work fine for me either

Xerxes,
You can back peddle now but your post was vague if you were alluding to someone else especially in the middle of a disscusion of CM. For the record, I don't defend CM, his personality or his television show. I never recommend someone get dog training advice from a television show, that would be as silly as recomending a trainer who went to a correspondance course for a credential. I do believe in many of the techniques he discusses in his book and the behaviorist who I have gone to has a similar philosophy. http://www.brandonfouche.com/  if you are interested.

Let's also be clear that this is the behavior/ aggresion forum. If someone wanted to do obediance work I would whole heartedly recomend +R training and I do some with my dogs. I just think that a basis of leadership through non-verbal communication on the dogs level will avoid many problems down the road. More importantly, Cesar as well as Brandon have documented success when dealing with aggression issues. Ask any of the many rescue groups in Los Angeles who use him.

I h ave never seen that guy;'s TV show (don't get the channel it comes on, but will starting tomorrow), never read any of his books, don't know a thing about the other people.

I am not sure i read the original post correct, but I got the idea that the dog more or less suddenly was bad to walk.  I didn't see anyone mention a medical reason could be at least part of the problem.  My 11/3/4 year old golden, Buck has trouble with night vision and some with depth perception.  This dog that had never been scared of anything is scared to leave the patio after dark.  he is scared to go into a dark room.  In daylight, if a leaf blows close to him, he jumps back and yelps.  This is no way any kind of aggression, but it is his reaction to not being able to see well.

And our first golen underwent a tempermanet change and we were stunned when all of a sudden he started growling at the boys next door if he saw them leaning over the fence.  He had played with them and it was so strange.  But it turns out he was very low thryoid and that can cause a very distinct change in personality, mood, etc.

It may be pure aggression of jealousy, etc with you dog, but I do think I would have her checked out, especially if this attitude came on ater some years of not being like that. Cover all bases

Addendum:
 
I don't really find fault with +R authors. I don't care much for bashing, which is like art, I know it when I see it.
 
Is it bashing if a thing stated is am unflattering truth? Is it the intention of some that to call CM a know-nothing media star with old, ill-fitted techniques and reduce him to a sound-making monk of New Skete, is not bashing but a person's stating of the truth? Is bashing the intention of discrediting someone's work and success? Bash would seem to imply physical force, usually. It's also been used as a euphemism for a party.
 
I used the word bash, Fisher didn't like that, so I had said we are then just exchanging opinions. But, if you still want to hash "bash", then perhaps we should do some bash-hashing. And yes, there is bashing in the other direction, supposing a conspiracy to eradicate CM on the part of some members of the ADPT. If that conspiracy, even as only a general agreed opinion, is true, is it bashing to state that?
 
My statements in the previous post were not necessarily my current opinions but I offered those as statements of similar invectives to criticisms of CM, and to see if some people might consider that bashing.
 
Creds are important. I have a few of my own. I have known people with creds that had no practical experience. I've known people with decades of experience and no solid creds. And all the range in between.
 
I would also think that a new person encountering our debates will come away with a few options. Either they will steer clear of CM, figuring they don't want all that controversy. Or, they will check him out to see what all the fuss is a about. Or, maybe, just overview, not use his methods at all, if any, and, hopefully, seek a local trainer who will probably have a wide variety of methods, depending on the personality of the dog.
 

Ron, I am sorry you totally misunderstood me, which makes sense because I was being vague.

I was serious. You responded to my initial post with content--you posted that link about the rats and flooding. That was interesting. That could have turned into an actual discussion instead of "bashing" which IMO is just an overused word that does nothing but stifle actual discussion.

What I meant was you are the only person who responded to my *content* with *content of your own*, and I think that this is what healthy debate is all about. I wrote about this earlier, saying that we really could have discussed flooding as a technique now that we had two opinions, and how this is different from calling someone the Moral Police because you don't agree with them...

...and I figured you had read all four tedious pages of this horribly off-topic thread...

...my bad!

Anyway, I was actually thanking you, I thought we left that bashing thing over on page one or two. Sorry to get you all riled.

Thanks, Ron. Seriously. Have a great day. Let's talk flooding sometime. It's an interesting topic.

Ummmmmm....is any of this discourse actually helping the OP?

cynology was the study of animal behavior (since it refers specifically to the study of canine behavior).

 
Actually, it refers to the "Study of Dogs" which includes behavior, but is really the study of the WHOLE dog (ie: canine evolution, breed developement, training, etc).
 
I'm not trying start anything, just wanted to clear this up.

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

Xerxes,
You can back peddle now but your post was vague if you were alluding to someone else especially in the middle of a disscusion of CM. For the record, I don't defend CM, his personality or his television show. I never recommend someone get dog training advice from a television show, that would be as silly as recomending a trainer who went to a correspondance course for a credential. I do believe in many of the techniques he discusses in his book and the behaviorist who I have gone to has a similar philosophy.  [linkhttp://www.brandonfouche.com/%C2%A0]http://www.brandonfouche.com/ [/link] if you are interested.

Let's also be clear that this is the behavior/ aggresion forum. If someone wanted to do obediance work I would whole heartedly recomend +R training and I do some with my dogs. I just think that a basis of leadership through non-verbal communication on the dogs level will avoid many problems down the road. More importantly, Cesar as well as Brandon have documented success when dealing with aggression issues. Ask any of the many rescue groups in Los Angeles who use him.

Actually, there are dog training correspondence courses that subsequently offer an apprenticeship with a NADOI instructor, and there are trainers who have taken not only correspondence or online courses for one thing and another, but take them for CEU's for APDT.  Any trainer is a combination - could be any or all: education, apprenticeship, experience, shelter work, rescue, etc.  And, some are self-taught.  But, the real deal is whether they can train dogs of different breeds and who come with all kinds of behavioral baggage.  More importantly, can they train the humans to train the dogs...
Also, if this is the behavior thread, then why is it that so many people here don't understand, or care, about behavior protocols other than CM's.  Have you heard of Estep and Hetts, Overall, Dodman, Lindsay?  What do you think of their methods?  If you want to have an intelligent conversation about behavior, you should be reading Coppinger, Fogel, and Campbell, too.  Not all of them employ positive protocols in every situation, but for gosh sake, broaden your knowledge before you slam people for having taken the time to do that before deciding that CM is not who they wish to emulate.  Does he do some good stuff?  Sure.  Does he do some bad stuff?  Too often for me.  Sorry, but it seems to me that to idolize the guy to the exclusion of so many other really learned and experienced people is beyond comprehension. 
Yes, this is the behavior/aggression forum.  So, then you must know that at least 80% of aggression is rooted in fear.  Fear is not something you treat with aggression, and, frankly, in those dogs for whom aggression toward them simply makes them "time bombs", you aren't accomplishing the desired long term result.  I want to see where my clients are two years later, not just two weeks later.
Also, the very first suggestion for dogs with a sudden aggression problem is a veterinary exam, as Sandra mentioned.  Not a CM protocol, or anyone else's protocol for that matter. 
I do not equate the legitimate criticism of a methodology with "bashing", although I am certain that any criticism of a groupie's hero would be taken that way.  Even though I like most of Jean Donaldson's protocols, I am not a groupie, and would not hesitate to adopt a protocol that I prefer over hers.  In fact, with regard to training motivational retrieves, I did not choose Sue Sternberg's, although I think it's good.  I chose Lonnie Olson's, because I thought it seemed to fit my dog's case better.  What really bothers me here is that we all agree on the generalities - people should be calm and assertive with their dogs.  But, some of us object when "assertive" seems to translate to pinning a dog.  That's "authoritative", and may not be what we want to choose when working with our dogs.  I have no problem expressing that I can be assertive with a dog without touching him in an aggressive way, and that I think others can do it too.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

cynology was the study of animal behavior (since it refers specifically to the study of canine behavior).

Actually, it refers to the "Study of Dogs" which includes behavior, but is really the study of the WHOLE dog (ie: canine evolution, breed developement, training, etc).

I'm not trying start anything, just wanted to clear this up.

Of course you weren't trying to start anything.