Too much Aggression; please help me. or leave suggestions :(

When a small handful of people charge in with really political, polarizing language that turns off debate whenever a certain dog trainer with a television show is mentioned, then this forum is going to continue to devolve into personal attack and these threads are going to continue to be ugly
 
Make sure you are including people who seem to pop up every time Cesar's name is mentioned to say how awful he is.
 
They could very easily say their piece about what THEY would do, and give advice without any mention of Cesar at all...but they don't. They are the other half, and arguements and attacks could not exist period...without BOTH sides participating. That simple fact is often ignored.

With all the opinions people so freely give in this forum, I wonder how many even have lived with a dog with agression issues. I have two female Pit rescues with aggresion issues that we have mostly worked through. I know what works for me and would love to know the experiance of some of you that have such strong opinions.

One of CM's favorite dogs is Popeye, a female pit bull with one eye that he rescued from a dog fighting ring. He enlists her help in re-socializing other dogs and she is a CGC.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

When a small handful of people charge in with really political, polarizing language that turns off debate whenever a certain dog trainer with a television show is mentioned, then this forum is going to continue to devolve into personal attack and these threads are going to continue to be ugly

Make sure you are including people who seem to pop up every time Cesar's name is mentioned to say how awful he is.
 
They could very easily say their piece about what THEY would do, and give advice without any mention of Cesar at all...but they don't. They are the other half, and arguements and attacks could not exist period...without BOTH sides participating. That simple fact is often ignored.

I feel empowered to answer this since I assume I am one of the people you mention.  I don't think anyone on this forum could quibble about the amount of free advice I have given here as to "how I would do it", which might also include who I emulate versus who I choose not to emulate.  I see no reason why, if I am debating a training or behavior issue, or trying to inform others (including newbies and lurkers), I should have to avoid the mention of the trainers or behaviorists I haven't much faith in, any more than I should avoid telling people who I think they might wish to learn more about.  Odd, but I don't see much about CM's specific methods on these threads - I see more about the smoke and mirrors part.  People who handle dogs have been using "calm and assertive" techniques for years.  But, for some of us, assertive means assertive, not authoritarian.  And, for those who think CM is so knowledgeable, he handed a dog a treat on last night's episode and said "that's what some people call positive reinforcment".  So, he doesn't have a clue either.  He just perpetuates the myth that +R is only about treats. 
Frankly, I was also struck that he engaged children to skateboard closely to an aggressive Bulldog.  No trainer or behaviorist should go out into the neighborhood and use other people's kids to work with an aggressive dog.  It's ethically a big booboo.  He should have had his own assistants with him to do that work.  Yet another instance of lack of professional knowhow.

[] I'm coming in with you Glenda!

Deb, come on in!  But, please BYOB as mine is running a little low.
 
Now, as a person with a MAJOR phobia, I promise you if  you try flooding ME with snakes, one of the two of us will die.  Either me from terror or you for terrorizing me.
 
Now, Sheba had some major fear issues thanks to a couple mean drunks.  Had I tried flooding her, this is a girl who would have totally shut down.  She desparately wants to please me so by using desensitation and +R she's made absolutely tremendous leaps and bounds.  So while her issues were FEAR agression, it was agression none the less, so yes, I have lived with an agressive dog and I HAVE helped her work through that.  Pits TEND to be more dog agressive than people agressive....but when you have a german shepherd who is BOTH it takes some serious work.
 
And now, I return me to my valium haze.....

Spiritdogs could not resist the temptation of not letting the newbee fall in the "wrong hands" also and has to play the card of "just expresing my opinion about what do i think of him"

 
I was keeping my tongue until I read this.  Reason being, why would you take the hard approach right from the get go?  If my car doesn't start I don't rebuild the engine, I look for the simplest solution to my problem and go from there.
 
Training doesn't have to be harsh, dealing with aggression doesn't have to be done harshly either.  Start with the simplest possibility and escalate if no progress is made. 
 
I don't think I've ever "bashed" CM, not directly.  I don't employ his techniques, but I like the fact that he has exposed a little bit of understanding with regards to dog training, to the American public. 
 
Going back to the OP, there are many different philosophies in training your dogs, and in getting your dogs to get along.  Some use force and others use kindness.  Not all methods work with all dogs.  Sometimes you will have to use a hybrid of many different methods to achieve desired results.  There has been alot of information posted on this thread, in between the rhetoric.  Please gather the information and use it to the best of your understanding- and if you have any questions, I'm sure that you can PM the people on this thread, or start another thread and your questions will be answered.
 
Just remember that dogs don't think in the same ways that people do, they have different requirements with stability and knowing their place in the pack being of utmost importance.  There are many ways to establish your leadership of the pack, and usually just as many ways for dogs to establish theirs; some of which include play, physical position, body language and the last resort is usually violence.  There are specific dogs that will develop intense dislikes or intolerance for other dogs within your family unit.  This can be managed, but should never let go unchecked.
 
Feel free to PM me or post another thread if need be.

ORIGINAL: Xerxes
, why would you take the hard approach right from the get go?  .........................

Training doesn't have to be harsh, dealing with aggression doesn't have to be done harshly either. ...........................

I don't think I've ever "bashed" CM, not directly............................................................

Some use force and others use kindness.  ......................................

Comments like these lead me to believe you have no idea what CM or similar behaviorists are talking about. You may not be bashing him directly but you are certainly doing it with inuendo and plain old misinformation.

It's not about force, being harsh or using violence. It's all about leadership through proper walking which is the basis for most of what he talks about and then only giving affection at appropriate times. You won't harm your dog by walking it and you won't harm your dog by not lavishing it with affection whenever you feel like it.

I have no problem with +R training, only the proponents who claim it is the only way to modify behavior. CM certainly didn't invent any of the things he preches and doesn't claim to. Walking your dog to establish leadership and then only showing affection when the dog comes to you in a calm submissive state is 90% of what he is all about but everyone here likes to jump on any correction he might use and make that the focus of disscusion.

If most of the newbies who come here with problems would understand his philosophy and walk their dog properly and not spoil it they would solve most of the problems that come up on this forum. To detract from that simple message and try to change behaviors without first establishing leadership is just a band aid that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

OR, people could try concentrating on NOT turning every training question into a CM debate.  Seriously, this is getting beyond ridiculous.  If nobody had noticed, very few of the 3 pages of posts have had anything to with helping the OP, as much as they have been, like so many of the other training threads, a pissing contest.
 
Maybe the OPs are not responding to threads like this becasue they'd rather not step into Dog Training WW III.  Forget the dogs, we need a forum to deal with huamn aggression.[sm=no%20no%20smiley.gif] 

richard, CM is *not* a behaviorist.  A behaviorist is someone who has a Master's or PhD in ethology, psychology, animal behavior, zoology, etc., or a DVM.  He can call himself whatever he likes, and certainly there are many trainers and others who do behavioral work, but technically speaking, he is not a behaviorist.  Perhaps some of the bad blood on these threads is because people assign this person status to which he is not entitled.  Funny, he's the one always talking about pack order.  Well, perhaps he needs to stand behind some of the people whose methods he seems to disdain.  A behaviorist would certainly know what positive reinforcement, operant conditioning, and classical conditioning meant, and might not explain them so cursorily as giving the dog a treat and telling the TV audience that's what some people call positive reinforcement.  I bet now there will be threads on "CM uses positive reinforcement".  Poppycock.  And, if it bothers anyone how the threads turn out - tough.  If Jaime has a problem with how a thread is proceeding, she can let us know.  Sorry, but I am a professional, and it's not in me to let crap advice go unchallenged whether people agree with me or not.  So, as long as there is a CM perspective, there will be a Donaldson, Clothier, Aloff, Parsons, Dunbar, Pryor, Sdao, Silvani, etc. perspective here, hopefully.

quoteRIGINAL: rwbeagles When a small handful of people charge in with really political, polarizing language that turns off debate whenever a certain dog trainer with a television show is mentioned, then this forum is going to continue to devolve into personal attack and these threads are going to continue to be ugly Make sure you are including people who seem to pop up every time Cesar's name is mentioned to say how awful he is.   They could very easily say their piece about what THEY would do, and give advice without any mention of Cesar at all...but they don't. They are the other half, and arguements and attacks could not exist period...without BOTH sides participating. That simple fact is often ignored.

Gina, there is a big difference between saying "I disagree with CM and here is why" and saying "because you do not agree with CM, you are the moral police, are being politically correct, or are a hater."

I started this kerfuffle. And I did it by stating my own opinions about CM's techniques in non-provocative language. What followed was a bunch of aggressive behavior that had nothing to do with my original post.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
A behaviorist is someone who has a Master's or PhD in ethology, psychology, animal behavior, zoology, etc., or a DVM. 

What school did you get your degree from Anne?

Also check out this website  http://www.brandonfouche.com/
It is the person I got our latest rescue from. She is a Katrina dog (many were sent to Los Angeles) and he boarded her for a long time. Whenever I have questions I can call him which is a great resource. I don't know if he has any formal education and I really don't care, he gets results.

You can take all those degrees and paper train your dog on them as far as I am concerned. If you can get results and are paid for it you are a behaviorist or trainer or whatever you want to call yourself.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

richard, CM is *not* a behaviorist.  A behaviorist is someone who has a Master's or PhD in ethology, psychology, animal behavior, zoology, etc., or a DVM. 

But i bet he makes more money than any other behaviorist with a degree [], he is a "street smart"

By the way, i never found the part in his webpage where it says he has an "all male" pack as you said, i think i asked you where did you read that, can you please provide me with the link? []

CM describes himself as a dog behavior specialist and I don't recall that we ever settled the semantics of it. I had asked if there was a definition of a dog behavior specialist and what those creds would be, as opposed to the creds you have stated for a dog or animal behaviorist.
 
And you are certainly free to counterpoint that perhaps "dog behavior specialist" is something dreamed up by CM, that danged ole immigrant millionaire.

Hey Ron,

Thanks for being the only one who actually commented on the content of my post instead of getting all Millaneous about it.