Too much Aggression; please help me. or leave suggestions :(

Richard, from the peanut gallery I am becoming a fan.  You offer good insight to behavior issues and training and you make me think and modify my relationship with my dogs.  The others do to.  What I don't understand is why there is not a understanding that ignoring a snipe is much more powerful and insulting than addressing the snipe directly.

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

When I wrote that she had not logged in five days after she posted. If you read the thread you will see she eventually has checked back and inquired about your suggestion asking about a price and where to find it. You'd think being on the Internet one might just check Amazon so I get the impression that there won't be a lot of effort placed on learning what's best for the dog.

All of that doesn't really matter though because I think your post and the part about "doing harm"was ment as a snipe at me and anyone else who believes CM might be of use.

OK, gloves off - it was meant to dissuade anyone who might be thinking of it to avoid using CM as a model for how to address behavioral problems in dogs, since he is simplistic, and not well versed in dog behavior.  I can't put it more plainly than that.  I agree with the article that was posted on another thread about CM versus Dunbar, and the tendency for Americans to disdain anyone who is well educated and instead follow some folk hero (read TV guru).  I'm certainly not an elitist, but would certainly give Dr. Dunbar the benefit of the doubt as to who knows more about dog behavior.

As far as sniping is concerned....well, there was something about treat-dispensing roommate butlers that I seem to remember.   To be honest, I was not sniping - I made a direct statement , and it was specifically intended to give people a heads up that there are really good trainers/behaviorists that they can readily access via dogwise.com or amazon.com.  The question is, who are they?  And, IMO, they are *not* CM.  They are:
Ian Dunbar
Jean Donaldson
Patricia McConnell
Brenda Aloff
Suzanne Clothier
Kathy Sdao
Pia Sylvani
Trish King
Terry Ryan
Etc.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
..well, there was something about treat-dispensing roommate butlers that I seem to remember.

That definately was not me. I also use +R but think there is more than one way to skin a cat.

ORIGINAL: DPU

  What I don't understand is why there is not a understanding that ignoring a snipe is much more powerful and insulting than addressing the snipe directly.

Because sometimes a correction works better than ignoring a behavior.

Politically correct? Moral police?

This is a dog forum. I offered my opinion about a specific dog trainer's techniques in rather neutral language.

The reason all the +R people get all up in your business, Richard, is because you respond to opinions about training dogs with really loaded political language that has nothing to do with training dogs. Talk about indirect...

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs ..well, there was something about treat-dispensing roommate butlers that I seem to remember.

That was espencer.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs ..well, there was something about treat-dispensing roommate butlers that I seem to remember.

That was espencer.

Thanks, fisher - I was generalizing, but thanks for clarifying that - it's just that the language from all the CM groupies tends to flow together.
They just can't stand that people actually have reasons why they think the guy doesn't know his butt from tire tube where dogs are concerned.  Being repeatedly bitten by dogs is not the mark of a great behaviorist, it's the mark of someone who knows so little about dog behavior that they get the chance to bite him repeatedly...

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

Yes, I am a huge baiter and nitpicker. People on this forum can discount CM and his techniques all day but if someone says anything negative about +R all heck breaks loose. I feel it is important to let people who come here asking questions and legitmately looking for help that there is more than the one option. Every time someone offers an example of CM or similar techniques there is a bunch of folks jumping all over them.

I agree, lets just gonna give our advice depending in our own experience and the YesIMneRvous will be the one in charge to pick the one that fits the best

I apologize for the whole "treat dispenser" incident, i think i was in a moment when i was just tired of people exaggerating techniques that work for me so i did it too with theirs

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I'd recommend you stop treating all the dogs equally. Kiki is clearly, in her mind anyway, superior to Coco; if you support her position, she may stop bullying Coco. I would also strongly recommend you feed the dogs in separate rooms or in crates or something. Let them eat in peace and stop squabbling over food.

I actually would recommend the opposite (please realize that i'm not saying mudpuppy is wrong to avoid any misundestanding)

Treating the dogs equally will prevent future fights with some members "crossing the line" sometimes, you can be the leader "alpha" and all your dogs being "beta", no "favorites", no body will think is superior than the other

Also IMO i think feeding them in separate rooms would create different groups, eating everybody together will unify your pack

Keep walking Kiki the lack of this excersice could bring more problems for you

I also recommend that you watch Cesar Millan's "The dog Whisperer", you know your own dog and your know how far can you get with some techniques

Cesar has been bitten yes, but is like expecting a football player not to get injured a couple times, expecting a boxer not to get hit in the face, etc. it comes with the job but that does not mean he is not a professional and doesnt know what he is doing

I bet if a +R trainer works with aggressive dogs at least he is gonna get bitten once every 100 times []

I would recommend that you feed your dogs separately, and that you practice NILIF with all of them.  Get a copy of "How to Be the Leader of the Pack and Have Your Dog Love You For It" and "Feeling Outnumbered?"  both by Patricia McConnell and available at her website: www.dogsbestfriendtraining.com.  She is a PhD behaviorist and well versed on what works in packs. 
Another person whose work you might be interested in is Trish King, who has a new DVD, "Multiple Dogs".  You can get that one at Tawzer Dog Videos. 
Cesar Millan is not the wonder boy that some would have you believe - in fact it is not a very wondrous achievement to have an all male pack, as his website boasts he has.  As a rule, males generally only fight ritualistically and seldom kill one another.  I'd be more impressed with his abilities if someone told me he kept an all female pack.  Bitch fights are generally more serious when they take place, and sometimes females *will* fight to the death.
Somewhere in the archives here, I posted how you tell which dog is your "true dominant" dog.  If you were going to support any of the dogs in your pack over the others, it would be that one.  Trouble is, humans often pick the wrong dog, so you are better off simply being a leader, and letting the dogs below you work it out for themselves (so long as no one is actually drawing blood).  If you can't solve it, get help from a qualified behaviorist.  You can Google on "Animal Behavior Society" or IAABC to find one.

Just try both techiques, +R or Behaviorists methods and choose  the one that fits your the best, you can alwys take a little from both []

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Oh crap, here we go again...still.  Think I'll go crawl back into the valium bottle........sigh

I totally agree with you, but some people here can't let go, dont want a newbee to fall in "wrong techniques" and keep trying to convince them to do something different instead on just be focused on provide advice, example?, this one:

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
Cesar Millan is not the wonder boy that some would have you believe - in fact it is not a very wondrous achievement to have an all male pack, as his website boasts he has.  As a rule, males generally only fight ritualistically and seldom kill one another.  I'd be more impressed with his abilities if someone told me he kept an all female pack.  Bitch fights are generally more serious when they take place, and sometimes females *will* fight to the death.

Talking about putting gasoline on a fire

Snownose just give her advice of watch Cesar Millan Tv show and read his book, what happen next? of course mudpuppy starts to talk bad about Cesar saying his techniques are based on make dogs terrified

Do you see CM supporters saying something like "no, no, dont read the book they said"?, NO we name the person the OP should read and let others name the one they think will work

Spiritdogs could not resist the temptation of not letting the newbee fall in the "wrong hands" also and has to play the card of  "just expresing my opinion about what do i think of him"

Just let it go people, let other people give advice, you give yours and dont say anything about a person you dont like, we can debate fairly about dogs eating in separate rooms or not but why to go always to the "Cesar is not that good anyways", "Cesar is not this or that", "Cesar is a bully", why you do it if you know that when that happens the topic tranforms in a 16 pages of CM techniques???? and it happens 100% of the times!!!! then the OP will leave without a clear advice because somebody said to do this but others said avoid that at all cost, instead of  "ok try both and choose the best one for you"

If you dont have anything good to say about somebody then dont say anything at all, tell the OP which trainer YOU think will work (we wont talk bad about them) and let us do the same (and dont talk about them either), did the OP asked "what do your think about CM?" I dont think so, so why start if we all here know you dont like him?

IMO all the "fights" start when +R people talk bad about CM or exaggerate his techniques, CM supporters never start saying something bad about +R techniques UNTILL CM techniques are attacked

Could you help me and provide the link that says he has an "all male" pack from his own webpage? i went there and i didnt find anything like that, i dont think Cesar discriminates based on sex gender, i mean, more than 30 dogs and not even one female? thats weird, i have to read that

Stating opinions in non-inflammatory language is not an attack, and is being taken as one.

As the person who instigated this one, I can say that I did not state anything other than my own knowledge and opinions. I called no names, didn't bait anyone, didn't personally attack anyone, and didn't use inflammatory language. The only person who actually answered what I said about dogs is Ron, and he brought up some good points that I would be really interesting to discuss. For instance, he left a link to a paper that was about how flooding works really well for reducing fear responses in rats. That is interesting, because I stated that flooding doesn't work when training dogs--that it's a bad technique. I am open to debating this point. I think that flooding works really well with humans with phobias, but that a crucial difference is that you can't explain to a dog that you're doing this for his own good. I think this complicates the issue. Researchers also don't have to live with the rats' fear-based behavior, and aren't looking at the rats as companions. They aren't dependent upon the rats' trust in other aspects because the rats don't need to have a good recall. In my personal opinion, because I need my dog to trust me, and because I can't explain why I am exposing my dog to something he fears, systematic desensitization is a better technique for dealing with scary situations. But I am open to discussing other ideas. That's what I am here for.

Everyone else turned it into hatin' on CM, and used language that stifles interesting discussions like the one above, like crying "politically correct" whenever someone disagrees with CM, or stating that the +R proponents are the "moral police," or calling them "haters."

I think that this, and not Cesar Millan himself, is what is getting everyone all riled up. And I think it sucks, frankly. I remember when this forum used to have real, engaged debates about traditional methods v. positive reinforcement. They were interesting because they were about techniques and ideas, and not about calling Karen Pryor a cat killer and "political correctness". I learned a lot, and I used a lot of the ideas that traditional methods folks wrote about in my own training. So did a lot of people.

When a small handful of people charge in with really political, polarizing language that turns off debate whenever a certain dog trainer with a television show is mentioned, then this forum is going to continue to devolve into personal attack and these threads are going to continue to be ugly. And I think that this famous dog trainer in question would hate that. I think he would rather that people actually talk about dogs and techniques that work with them.

Fisher6000,
 
I was the one who mentioned Karen Pryor killing her cat for peeing on her stove. I removed that comment from that post a few days ago as it was a cheap shot and uncalled for.
 
A person has a right to choose death over rehoming as they see fit with their own animal, and it has no bearing on the other issues at hand.
 
 

I'd suggest, OP, you consult a behaviorist AND take some training classes with ALL the dogs AND implement NILIF in your entire doggie household.  And read, read, read, read and use what works and makes sense to you and disregard the rest    Good luck!!!