Too much Aggression; please help me. or leave suggestions :(

Richard:

I did not use vitrolic language, hyperbole, personal attack, name-calling, or any other inappropriate kind of communication. I agreed with Mudpuppy and stated why. This is a dog forum. I think that stating my opinions about a trainer's techniques in a dog forum is appropriate.

Will you please point out the part that makes me a "hater"? That is such a strong word, hate, and I want to understand exactly why I am being accused of hating.

Ron and Richard:

What does "bash" mean? Does anyone who disagrees with anyone else "bash" them?

Then, we're all stating our opinions, whether for or against, and offering our viewpoints or info that we have.
 
As I have said, I don't use much, if any, of CM's actual techniques but I appreciate some of his insight and understand he has some successes, including an average of 35 rescued dogs, many of them rescued from dog-fighting rings that would have normally been PTS. And I think someone coming here for help should have all the info laid out before them, including, even, our opinions.

In the nutrition section, people think dogs are wolves enough to want to feed them that way.

So? Does that mean that dogs are in fact wolves?

CM does not "let" dogs bite him. It just sometimes happens when breaking up a fight or dealing with aggression issues.

I have seen CM get bitten in while working with a dog that did not like being touched on the rear and a dog that did not like being groomed. These are not the kinds of circumstances you describe. Either way, is it or is it not a good idea to put yourself into a position where you are being bit by a dog? Even if a fight breaks out? Is this good handling?

And does he or does he not have a disclaimer at the beginning of his show? I actually don't have an axe to grind... but I don't think it's a good idea to do as he does for the simple reason that he is making compelling television. Compelling television thrives on conflict, and I think good dog training should do the opposite. It should actively reduce conflict.

I am not advocating forgetting how the dog thinks at all. In fact, I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs think than how wolves think, and I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs actually think and less about how human beings think about how they think.

Please answer my question, Ron. What does "bash" mean?

I ask because everyone seems to be accusing everyone else of it on this forum and I cannot figure out for the life of me what purpose that serves, except to stifle opinions that people don't like.

So? Does that mean that dogs are in fact wolves?

[blockquote]
No one knows for sure, yet. In 1995, genetic researcher Robert K. Wayne declared that the dog descended from the gray wolf, even though his work was incomplete and his own team found 26 different genetic indicators that differed between dog and wolf. Other scientists have not adopted that thought and do not adopt the new nomenclature used by the Smithsonian Institute. I tend to follow the latter. I think dogs and wolves descended from a common canid. Dogs are wolf-like and are the closest, genetically, to the wolves of all the worlds canids. It's easy to think they came from wolves. But even Wayne hasn't found archeological evidence to support that dogs came from gray wolves. Modernly, some behaviorists are saying that dogs are not wolves, which allows room to say that one should not view dog interaction in light of wolf interaction. Yet, again, I don't think the science supports that, IMHO, non "bashing" opinion.
 

I have seen CM get bitten in while working with a dog that did not like being touched on the rear and a dog that did not like being groomed. These are not the kinds of circumstances you describe. Either way, is it or is it not a good idea to put yourself into a position where you are being bit by a dog? Even if a fight breaks out? Is this good handling?
 
I have the vet muzzle Shadow for shots and some exams. Shadow will snap. Perhaps CM should muzzle a dog. That may be against his credo, though. I don't know about that. But he doesn't tell people to get themselves bit.


And does he or does he not have a disclaimer at the beginning of his show? I actually don't have an axe to grind... but I don't think it's a good idea to do as he does for the simple reason that he is making compelling television. Compelling television thrives on conflict, and I think good dog training should do the opposite. It should actively reduce conflict.
 
The tone of the show has changed and there are more options being offered. You might try watching the more recent episodes, if possible. Like the one where he's using a treat to help a dog get over the fear of taking a bath.


I am not advocating forgetting how the dog thinks at all. In fact, I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs think than how wolves think, and I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs actually think and less about how human beings think about how they think.
 
It is notable that wolves in captivity behave a little differently than wolves in the wild. With dogs, too, being in captivity, things must be considered. Wolves in captivity may sometimes show more aggression. Dogs that have gone feral begin to exhibit more wolf behavior, including pack structure, alpha position, cooperation for the hunt.[/blockquote]

Oh crap, here we go again...still.  Think I'll go crawl back into the valium bottle........sigh

ORIGINAL: fisher6000
 In fact, I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs think than how wolves think, and I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs actually think and less about how human beings think about how they think.

OK, you used "think" 9 times in that sentence, way over the limit. If you can't figure out what "bash" means after seeing it on this forum repeatedly than I don't THINK I can explain to you why you can include yourself in the plural "haters" that I mentioned.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Oh crap, here we go again...still.  Think I'll go crawl back into the valium bottle........sigh

My sentiments exactly.

Oh noes! Someone said the 'C' word!

Richard, you accuse people of being bashers and haters, using your own words. What does using those words to refer to other people make you? Please try to play nice. We're all adults, here.

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

ORIGINAL: fisher6000
In fact, I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs think than how wolves think, and I think it's necessary to think more about how dogs actually think and less about how human beings think about how they think.

OK, you used "think" 9 times in that sentence, way over the limit. If you can't figure out what "bash" means after seeing it on this forum repeatedly than I don't THINK I can explain to you why you can include yourself in the plural "haters" that I mentioned.

 
Richard, if you cannot figure out how to play nice, please take your toys and go home.
 
Anyhoo, it sounds like you are dealing with several issues here, and would really recommend that you find a behaviorist.  That is what I would do if they were my pups. []

Wow, again Richard I want to know what I said that is so hateful... hate is a very strong word and I want to understand what I have done to deserve the appelation. I was repeating the word think to be funny and maybe it didn't come off as intended but I don't understand how overuse of the word think is worthy of the word "hate".

You have called me a "hater" twice now, and that is such a strong, ugly thing to call someone that I think I deserve an explanation. Why am I, in your opinion, a "hater"?

fisher, it's doubtful you'll get your answer from that poster.  We seem to have a poster who is great at baiting and dodging but not ever really answering questions.
 
Ya know...the filter won't let me say some words...like moronda without the last two letters because it's been used rudely.  If the filter has a problem with repeated use of the same word in a sentence I figure it's gonna tell us...one way or another.  But gosh, for a second there I felt like I was back in school to actually see someone count the number of times someone used the same word in a sentence....talk about nit picking!

This must be the most politically correct forum on the web. "Hater" is a very common slang word for someone who doesn't like something. Either you have no knowledge of current American slang or you are playing dumb. To say you are "over the limit" was also said in jest as was most of what I posted, I guess we can dish it out but can't take it.

Yes, I am a huge baiter and nitpicker. People on this forum can discount CM and his techniques all day but if someone says anything negative about +R all heck breaks loose. I feel it is important to let people who come here asking questions and legitmately looking for help that there is more than the one option. Every time someone offers an example of CM or similar techniques there is a bunch of folks jumping all over them.

It it no wonder that such a +R forum is filled with people who get upset with someone speaking his mind and being direct. +R only training fits perfectly with  the everybody should agree and make nice nice attitude of some of moral police around here.

ORIGINAL: richard_dragin

What we have here is someone so concerned about her dog that she signed up to ask a question, made one post, and has not logged back on in 5 days since. So Ann's great suggestion of  McConnell is falling on deaf ears and I doubt if she won't log on in 5 days to read a thread that she started that she will be motivated to go out buy a book and read it.

And then of course Muddy who must do searches with the keyword "Cesar" has to show up for some bashing which must account for 75% of her post count.

Hopefully, she is not posting because she's busy reading the book, or watching Trish's video, and trying the suggestions so she can really help her dogs get along, rather than getting simplistic advice that might hurt the situation rather than help it.

When I wrote that she had not logged in five days after she posted. If you read the thread you will see she eventually has checked back and inquired about your suggestion asking about a price and where to find it. You'd think being on the Internet one might just check Amazon so I get the impression that there won't be a lot of effort placed on learning what's best for the dog.

All of that doesn't really matter though because I think your post and the part about "doing harm"was ment as a snipe at me and anyone else who believes CM might be of use.