How to handle dog when it's gotten into "red zone"

    • Gold Top Dog
    I am still not clear as to why it is wrong to make a correction as a stand alone action once the behavior starts. Mudpuppy distinguishes between Management and Training and I see this action as Managing.

     
    you have to do SOMETHING to stop the behavior. However, if you are in Management Mode you shouldn't expect your behavior to change the dog's future behavior, you're just fixing NOW. So I am unsure if one should call it a "correction". But don't just be content that you stopped the behavior, whatever it was. If your dog does something that triggers you to Manage the dog, it tells you that you need to initiate a proactive training program to permanently fix the problem. If he did it once, he's likely to do it again some other time.
    • Gold Top Dog
    When faced with the inevitable slipup, I had great luck with acting incredibly silly and goofy and fun and turning around and running away from the danger and going and doing something fun,


    I don't tend to act really silly, but I do have a repetoire of movements depending on the dog, that work, if be a tree isn't plausible (stimuli too close, we're in a dangerous place, dog is endangering others).

    Remember I started my time with this foster establishing a leading relationship, so he's open to my leadership even when highly stimulated. So when I kneel, he will go down - I really don't have to force him. If I spin, he'll follow - if I turn, he'll spin - it's all a big game, one we've been playing for weeks already. He kind of goes into the zone and it starts to snap him out of it already.

    Well, that's a Border Collie for you. I don't know whether that would work for a chow or mastiff. [;)] Wouldn't hurt to try. Keep a tight hold on that lead though. The key is keeping close to the back of the head, Ixas girl, on that spinning stuff. It's like a bucking horse - if you grab the reins down low you get more control. Besides, if your dog is acting up like you describe she can hurt herself on a long leash.

    All right, now the second I see a response, I've got something to work with. I'll try a command the dog knows, "watch me" is perfect - easy, impossible to react and watch me at the same time - and the clicker is VERY powerful for this sort of thing.

    I know I said I don't do watch me for working dogs, but for dog aggression it's still the weapon of choice. Dog aggression is a different situation altogether. I DO want those eyes glued to me when they feel that urge to snap.

    I had a dog of my own who was trained so well, that I often forgot she was dog aggressive. I'd be chatting with someone and suddenly look down to meet her frantic gaze - there'd be someone's stupid off leash dog making clueless overtures to her and there she'd be, sitting at my feet desperately trying to get my attention. "Make it stop, please . . . "[:D]

    She went on to become an airport security dog and when I talk with her handler we call it the Trim Not-Not-Looking Look.
    • Gold Top Dog
    The way I deal with Conrad's leash reactivity in a management mode is to turn and walk the other way. We need to get farther from the stimulus, not closer. I can do this without "dragging" him even though he's 85 lbs. and I've usually got another dog with me as well, by getting him slightly off balance and then moving without hesitation in the direction we need to go. I'm not even sure if I can describe over the internet in words how I do that, I just do. He's a stubborn tank when he's really in to something so I've had lots of experience in not pulling him from a direction where he can just dig in and not move (hello loosing battle). I can use a really small amount of pressure from just the right angle to get him to turn and once he's turned we're all business moving the other way. It's like tai qi that way I guess. You unseat your opponent through internal energy and balance, not brute force.

    He's never gotten into what I'd call "the red zone" agression-wise. He's not an aggressive dog, he's just leash and barrier reactive in certain situations. I try to catch his reactivity before it even really ramps up by watching his body language and always being aware of our surroundings, but sometimes other dogs kind of sneak up on us around corners and some quick thinking is necessary.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'll tell you why I don't correct...I feel the dog can associate pain with another dog.  Which is why I totally dropped the collar.


    lunge/mom tries to move Zeus forward/pain/pressure on neck....to me that may also translate to encouragement.  I have to think this because the more I  would pull him to move him along, the more he would lunge.

    And also, I think it is possible to generate the misplaced aggression in some dogs.

    Now I can only tell you what goes on with my dog.  But I have in my favor, his entire life history and knowing him as well as I do.  BUT.... I am always on guard for the unpredicted and unexpected....say for instance misplaced behavior.

    You can only push a dog so far.  Some dogs you can push less than others.  You have to know where that fine line is. And sometimes...that fine line can change in a heart beat.

    I always try to keep in mind that I am dealing with an animal.  Mine may have been raised like a child, with me all of his life and on and on...but his animal instinct is still very strong.

     Now I have met many dogs who are a little less on the animal side.  They are more dog than animal.

    That probably makes no sense whatsoever...sorry ..since a dog is an animal ;-)


    I am still not clear as to why it is wrong to make a correction as a stand alone action once the behavior starts.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I am pretty sure that this is what the premier easy walk is doing.  It seems if I am moving, he can't pull off a full lunge.  Due to the design of the harness.    If I am going forward, the martingale loop is taut...keeping him where I need him to be.  Which is on all fours with his head in my direction..  It is almost like.... where the shoulders go..the feet and head has to follow.

    But also I only use a long lead, so I really don't know how this would play out on short lead.  
    by getting him slightly off balance .
    • Gold Top Dog
    dogs have this thing called an "oppositional reflex" in which they automatically resist against pressure, esepcially when Not-thinking while in a reactive frenzy. Pulling on the neck triggers this reflex. The easywalk harness is very cleverly designed to not-trigger the reflex so it's much easier to keep control of the dog and get it turned around and AWAY without making the reactivity worse or having to drag the dog.  
    • Gold Top Dog
    Thank you thank you thank you....

    you not only confirmed my theory but said  what I have been trying to say...and without writing a novel like I usually have to do..   ;-)

    I actually witnessed this with my own two eyes.  Zeus made an attempt at a lunge, looked all surprised, then went on about his business.

    One day we had 3 large loose dogs on our butt, they came out of nowhere, as loose dogs always do, one being his most mortal of all enemies...the GSD..and again, a half lunge, then follow mom.

    Now I am not saying that it is a miracle cure, as I am sure that the many other factors that I had been working on came into play also. But it was a piece of the puzzle.

    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    dogs have this thing called an "oppositional reflex" in which they automatically resist against pressure, esepcially when Not-thinking while in a reactive frenzy. Pulling on the neck triggers this reflex. The easywalk harness is very cleverly designed to not-trigger the reflex so it's much easier to keep control of the dog and get it turned around and AWAY without making the reactivity worse or having to drag the dog.  
    • Gold Top Dog
    I am still not clear as to why it is wrong to make a correction as a stand alone action once the behavior starts.  Mudpuppy distinguishes between Management and Training and I see this action as Managing.

     
    Well, I can tell you why I will not use corrections, and most especially not with aggressive dogs. I can't speak on behalf of others (it's another one of those things where I'm dropping the labels, so instead of referring to a group, I refer to what I do [;)]).
     
    1. There is a 99% chance (yes, this a non-statistic statistic made by me, the point being that there is a VERY high probability of this occurring) that if your dog is truly in limbic mode (and this refers to any emotionally-based reaction - fear, anger, etc), your dog will not even notice the correction. Therefore, your dog will not learn from the correction, and since "corrections" are meant to change behaviour, you are not "correcting" anything. And corrections that don't "correct" becomes manhandling, nothing more.
     
    2. A correction, even well-timed, can make situations much worse, not in the learning sense, but in the physiological sense. A quick jerk on the collar, yelling, forcing the dog to do something when it is reacting, can all aid sufficiently in the production of adrenaline (epinepherine). The more adrenaline that is going on in that dog, the less control it has, the less able it will be to listen to you at that point. Also, the more stress you add to a situation, the more glucocorticoids that will be released into the blood stream. Glucocorticoids are also known as the "stress hormones", and they stay in the body and just generally cause other problems and make problems worse.
     
    This reason alone is one of the main reasons that e-collars should never, ever, ever be used with aggressive dogs (of course I don't feel that any dog should be submitted to electrick shock in the name of learning, but let's keep to aggression). It is not uncommon for an aggressive dog to amp up its aggression when electrocuted with a shock. Because electricity is associated with stimulation in general, and really puts everything on edge, and causes so many neurotransmitters and hormones to be released (among other things, when used medicinally), that the stimulation can enhance the aggression.
     
    3. If, for example, the dog is growling at somebody (a human or other dog), and you correct the behaviour. What have you sufficiently punished? The growling. You have bandaged up the symptom, rather than addressing the underlying problem, which of course is the dog's discomfort in the situation that is ongoing.
     
    By correcting the growling you have not at all solved the problem, and in a lot of cases you have made this worse. Why? Because very soon the dog stops growling, but is still uncomfortable, the problem is still there. Eventually they will be pushed to the limit and eventually bite. So you have effectively created a dog that will bite "without warning", so to speak. Dogs that will inevitably stop giving off signals of discomfort because they have been corrected for displaying normal dog behaviour, and simply do what gets the message across - biting. This is the classic case of the inevitable dog that bites without warning phenomenon.
     
    I will absolutely, under no circumstances, punish a growl. This is the dogs only communication that they are uncomfortable before doing what they have left - biting. I will always take a growl as communication, and go from there.
     
    4. If, perchance, you are one of the lucky ones who has a dog that is just developing some sort of aggression, this is actually the worst place to apply corrections (punishments), because this is the situation where the dog WILL learn from it's environment, and can very easily associate your corrections with the stimulus directly, and make the problem worse.
     
    So if your dog is alert barking at the boy next door because he's fearful of the boy, and you correct it, it is SO easy for that dog to learn to associate the boy with the correction. The same goes for being afraid of bikes, or skateboarders, or children, or all of those things that dogs can aggress towards.
     
    Most dog aggression cases occur entirely due to learned outcomes. If you talk to people who work with teaching dogs and dog behaviour (aka "dog trainers"), you will quickly find a very, very high number of aggression cases that develop because of the use of corrections when a dog is uncomfortable. In fact, a lot of aggression is inadvertantly caused directly by Dogparents in this way. Dogs that are handled on choke collars and prong collars are infamous for this developing.
     
    The happy-go-lucky Labrador is on a walk and desperately wants to go visit that man on the bench! WHAM, goes a collar pop, while dog is anxiously trying to get to the man. The dog starts, a little confused, but continues walking on, showing calming signals and a bit anxious. You continue your walk, and you come across another man walking by. The Labrador exuberantly tries to visit on the way by, WHAM, goes another collar pop, while the dog is looking towards the man. It's very easy for this dog to soon make the assocation (even though it's not the association you intend to make) that "these men cause pain to happen in my neck.". Hence troubles with men appear.
     
    These are just some of the reasons why I will not use corrections in working with aggressive dogs. In terms of management vs. teaching, I don't think anybody can call a correction management, because the term "correction" is meant to "correct" a behaviour, in other words change a behaviour in some way.
     
    Management is not about changing behaviour. Management is about preventing the behaviour to begin with, being proactive, keeping the dog away from the aggression-illiciting stimulus UNTIL you can work on the behaviour (or, realistically, underlying emotion first) directly. That's why it's called Management, as you are managing the dog, not teaching it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: TinaK
    I also believe that some of those cases relate to dominance/ hierarchal aggression (or all of the above), in which case the dog is reacting to a competitor, and not a "scary thing".


    Thanks for making this really good point, Tina! Then, if dogs' behaviors results from different triggers, would our responses to their losses of sanilty be different? (dominant outbursts vs panic outbursts)

    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
    people are confusing Management with Training. A dog who is in a "red zone" reactive frenzy CANNOT be trained while in that frenzy.
    ....

    If your dog is snarling and growling at you as you approach the food bowl, this is time for Managment, not Training, and now you know you need to do some Training about this problem tomorrow, after you've Managed the Crisis Now.


    Excellent distinction, mudpuppy! I think that's really useful. Every moment is not qualified to be a training moment.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove
    ... It's like tai qi that way I guess. You unseat your opponent through internal energy and balance, not brute force.


    Yeah, it is hard to describe. Thanks for your description, though, houndove ... like tai chi, using momentum is how I think of it, too. It's like using self-rewarding strategies. Getting the energy of the moment to move the moment along. Fluidly and without fuss.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
    However, if you are in Management Mode you shouldn't expect your behavior to change the dog's future behavior, you're just fixing NOW. So I am unsure if one should call it a "correction".


    Yeah, I am thinking about this ... and I wondering about it (wha' ... me?) ... To be super duper esoteric: I think we could say that very time we leave the house with a leash on our dog, we are practicing a form of P+ (add leash, wandering off decreases).

    In rewards based training, we connot see the leash as a training tool, because we'd have to say we're using P+ an awful lot (maybe you could argue that it's R-, with ending pressure on the leash increasing close walking). So, instead, the leash can be considered a "management tool", not a training tool. Which is only a nice idea, because the vast majority of people default to using the leash "to train."

    If management is not a correction, then what is the leash, really, and where do we draw the lines between things? .... Is Jen's body blocking of her nuts-for-the-cat dog a management tool and/or P+ (add blocking, cat attack decreases) and/or R- (end access, appropriate impulse control increases)? It starts to sound like we can interpret it based on intentions: if it's intended as "just management" we only judge it's harshness, but if it's offered as "correction", we can judge it as poor teaching (if it's P+).

    [sm=haha.gif] Yikes.

    Moving along ... [:D] I love hearing the descriptions of how people physically and gesturally engage with their dogs. It really is hard to describe, and imagine, but very worthy. What a great thread, everyone![sm=clapping hands smiley.gif]

    (I type this as I sit 3000 miles away from my Ixa, watching her on a web cam in the doggie daycare - I'm away for a conference and I miss her! It's our first time apart for more than a few hours [:(] lol ... but she's doing great!).
    • Gold Top Dog
    From MP: A dog who is in a "red zone" reactive frenzy CANNOT be trained while in that frenzy. All  you can do is get out of there, hopefully with as little damage to you and the dog as possible. It is true that dragging the dog away will not teach the dog anything. It's the desensitization program you are engaging in as soon as you realize you have a potential problem, training while the dog is NOT in a frenzy (you certainly can use a clicker during this training, click for calm behavior) that will cure the dog.

     
    That is one of the best comments I've read in a very long time. Thanks, as usual, to you, Mudpuppy, for sharing.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think we could say that very time we leave the house with a leash on our dog, we are practicing a form of P+ (add leash, wandering off decreases).

     
    Realistically, it's not P+ in any shape or form. Simply applying the leash does not decrease wandering off, for if you drop the leash, the dog will likely wander off anyhow. [;)] If the leash is 50 feet long, the dog will wander farther than if the leash was 6 feet long.
     
    It's only the human holding the leash that prevents wandering off. Wandering off is not decreased, it is prevented. The leash on one time will not decrease wandering the next time if you drop the leash. There is a difference between the two. Given the option (dropping the leash, even though it is still wearing the leash, thus applied), the behaviour can still occur, even though the leash is on.
     
      In rewards based training, we connot see the leash as a training tool, because we'd have to say we're using P+ an awful lot (maybe you could argue that it's R-, with ending pressure on the leash increasing close walking). So, instead, the leash can be considered a "management tool", not a training tool. Which is only a nice idea, because the vast majority of people default to using the leash "to train."

     
    Nope, I call it management, not P+. Please see above, it's not decreasing a behaviour, it's preventing it entirely - management. [:D]
     
      If management is not a correction, then what is the leash, really, and where do we draw the lines between things?

    The leash is management. The leash isn't used to "correct" anything unless you use the leash in that way. The leash prevents, not corrects. In fact, if a dog is taught properly, the leash is nothing but a safety mechanism, and the dog doesn't even ever reach the end of the leash. I teach my heeling and loose-leash walking off-leash, and only use the leash as a safety issue. You draw the line between things when you look at the fundamental basics of it all.
     
     
      Is Jen's body blocking of her nuts-for-the-cat dog a management tool and/or P+ (add blocking, cat attack decreases) and/or R- (end access, appropriate impulse control increases)?

    Jen's body blocking of her dog is only P+ if the behaviour decreases in the future. At the time she does it, it's simply prevention (management). If the next time (or 3 times from now) the dog thinks twice, then it was considered P+. If she doesn't think at all and chases again, then it was simply management - preventing, and didn't affect her behaviour in the long-term at all.
     
    The line between P+ and R- is blurry though. Often the two go very much hand in hand, just as R+/P- go very much hand in hand. The classic example of course is using an e-collar in training. For a recall some people will press the "continuous" shock until the dog comes. That is P+. However as a result of applying that, the shock stops as soon as the dog reaches the handler - R-. You need to have one to have had the other. Does that make more sense?
     
    So the behaviour of chasing would be P+, and the dog's impulse control would be R-, IF the behaviour changed in the future. And only if.
     
      It starts to sound like we can interpret it based on intentions: if it's intended as "just management" we only judge it's harshness, but if it's offered as "correction", we can judge it as poor teaching (if it's P+).

    Personally, I will investigate harshness no matter what its intentions are. [;)] When looking at management you shouldn't really be doing any sort of "corrective" behaviour, as true management indicates that you have thought ahead and prepared for different things. If you know your dog is dog-aggressive, you walk in the evening or early morning, you frequent places other dogs don't, you use closed-in tennis courts rather than dog parks. That is management. You aren't changing behaviour, you are preventing unwanted things from happening.
    • Gold Top Dog
    From Kim: ... true management indicates that you have thought ahead and prepared for different things. If you know your dog is dog-aggressive, you walk in the evening or early morning, you frequent places other dogs don't, you use closed-in tennis courts rather than dog parks. That is management. You aren't changing behaviour, you are preventing unwanted things from happening.

     
    Wonderfully put! Thank you so much for this. (Not to mention the off-leash for heeling tip, too!)
    • Gold Top Dog
    I want to comment on Kim_MacMillan two posts.  I understand and actually followed a similar protocol with a SA dog with extreme imbalance behavior.  I will not use corrections and I am aware of my body language so as not to signal displeasure.  I hope I have properly defined Management and the techniques within the Learning Methods.  Remember I am JQP and just looking to have harmony in my home.  I am sure I have missed some techniques.

    Management
    You can not remove or take the dog out of the situation but you can minimize the escalation of behavior and also reduce the chances of the dog hurting himself.  I designed the home alone kennel in sections and selected kennel items and comforts that eliminate or reduces destruction within.  Any uncontrolled chewing or destruction would escalate the behavior.  Flooring that can't be "dug up”.  An igloo as a den.  A half open crate with comfort clothes.  Comfort sweater.  Kongs and long lasting edible chews.  A maize to control where the dog p's and poops and then won't trample on it. 

    Classical conditioning
    -          pretend leaving the house and gradually increase the time intervals for each exercise
    -          backyard time with me and full pack
    -          backyard time with full pack (without me)
    -          backyard time mixing up the members and the number of members
    -          alone time in the backyard
    -          alone time in the kitchen with me and pack in next room
    -          inside the kennel I feed, groom, iron clothes, hobbies, and lay around with dog

    Operant  (work in progress – working through issues)
    -          clicker beginning obedience class
    -          click for calm when arriving home from my day
    -          calming from a distance (just started this and this is hard)


    Breed Instinct training (not started)

    Now I switch to the aggressive dog.  I have experience of having a SRS dog in my home.  Before identifying the dog as SRS, me and my dogs received bite scars because the behavior was unpredictable, had no identifiable triggers, and was sudden.  All other dogs had aggression type of resource guarding, leash reactivity, and transfer aggression. 

    I whole heartily agree with Karen_MacMillan's 4 points of why not to use corrections on an extreme aggressive dog.  I even add a 5th  ;point in that it is dangerous to the human.  When I fostered a pair of breeding beagles, the male was protective of the female and would not let any other dogs near her.  I pretty much followed what Karen_MacMillan states.

    With my fosters, I do use a low degree of correction such as furrowed brow or a stern NO.  This stops the act from escalating.  It depends though on my observations of the level of aggression, the trusting factor, how the dog uniquely responds to me, and the cohesiveness of the other pack members.  I am really big on safety so I have to have assurances on whether or not I have control of the dog.  I think that by my signal-the correction, I take over the responsibility of the situation and this relieves the dog of dealing with the threat.  Immediately after the dog backs down, I address the threat and then praise the dog for the calm behavior.  Given the qualifications I have identified, what is wrong with this?