How to handle dog when it's gotten into "red zone"

I really, really object to people dragging dogs by their necks when they (dog and/or people) are flipping out! I want the dog contained with the handler in a safe and defensible position! When the dog is in a down, she's not a threat to others or herself, and she can be calmed and contained easily. I am for kind and gentle - I feel this is the kindest and gentlest way! An easy down provides manageabilty without struggle. Dragging your dog away from "the scary thing" by the neck is violent - please don#%92t do it!

By definition, a dog that is "flipping out", or a territorially aggressive dog that you are trying to manage, many times will not be in a frame of mind to listen to the handler and simply do a "down".  If you don't agree, you haven't handled enough of these dogs.
No one here has ever advocated "dragging" a dog, but if you cannot get your dog away from the stim that is making him "flip out" (by that I am not talking about your average pet dog just barking a few times in frustration, at an approaching dog that he'd like to play with, nor am I describing minor fear reactions) you are risking  a worse situation, for your dog, who is "practicing" inappropriate behavior and being reinforced for it perhaps (the thing he's "flipping out" over is moving out of view - so he figures he accomplished that with his scary outburst).  It is quite possible for a handler to quickly exit in a way that simply takes the dog off balance slightly and makes it easier to get him to follow.  If the dog is so determined, or so strong, that the handler cannot do that, then training must take place, at first, away from "trigger" situations until the dog is confirmed in a default behavior on cue.

 I am sure you have read this before, but I will go over it again.

I used the easy walk premier no pull harness to help break Zeus' behavior chain.

Zeus' chain went something like this before the harness.....and I will keep it short...

See loose dog,
lunge
feel pressure at neck
snarl
feel pressure on neck
lunge and snarl
more pressure at neck
full blown frenzy.

With the easy walk harness he can't (or doesn't) pull off even the full lunge when I am moving him along. (long lead).  And there is no pressure on the neck to encourage him.

So, the new behavior chain goes like this

See loose dog,
make a half attempt at lunge if energy allows
follow mom and count on her to get out of this mess.

But I worked on other issues...which I am sure that you have also read about.

Self control
confidence
trust in handler (me)
understanding of underlying issues from handler (me)

I didn't just deal with the reactivity part.  I made it my business to find out why he was reactive.  ..which wasn't so hard for me because I am the only owner.  I know his entire history.

He is an old dog who was attacked on lead at the age of 10.  He know longer feels confident enough, due to age (13) and declining health,  to defend himself from young off lead unaltered territory defending whippersnappers....this responsibility falls on myself now and I take it seriously.

And now you know the rest of the story...

I'm interested to see where this thread goes.  My one experience with a leash reactive dog ended up with me getting bit quite harshly a few dozen times.  That was over a month ago and the bite spots are still tender.  So, whatever I was doing obviously did not work, hehe.  I believe I was going for what Ixas_Girl suggests - trying to get the dog down because he was reacting against me, not pulling to get the dog that triggered the episode.  My efforts to stay calm did not help at all and trying to slow the dog down resulted in further escalation of the bad behavior, and harder more intense bites.  Eventually I just gave up because I was not able to prevent the episode (I had turned to direct the dog to go in the opposite direction, and just my luck at that milisecond my eyes were off him and my back was turned, he spotted another dog and lunged on my back), I was not able to contain the episode, so I just covered my head with my arms until someone ran over and pulled him off. 

How does one just walk off with an 80 lb dog lunging at your face?  I have been successful at simply moving the dog along with dogs that become too focused or lunge toward other dogs, but when they're after you it's hard to keep a clear head.  Maybe there's different techniques for when the dog is not only leash reactive, but reacts at the handler rather than lunging/pulling towards the other dog?

I should add that I used Ali Brown's technique of destressing a dog....and still do.

In all fairness... I can thank Anne for having to read a gazillion books.  I may have only picked up a shred from this one or that, but combined, they helped me to understand and recognize what was going on with my dog and to formulate a program that met the needs of my dog.

You know what they say...give a man a fish and feed him dinner, teach a man to fish and feed him for life...or something to that effect.

Wow!  You know what?  I bet it was misplaced aggression.

I remember reading about that episode....but I didn't know another dog triggered it.

That puts a whole new spin on it.

That's why I say that some of this stuff can be dangerous. 

trying to get the dog down because he was reacting against me, not pulling to get the dog that triggered the episode. 

I remember reading about that episode....but I didn't know another dog triggered it.

It's been my assumption all along that the other dog was part of it.  When he first lunged at me from behind, I had no idea what set him off.  He'd bit and pull, then release and back up, start making noises and flipping out, then glance in the direction of the other dog and hit again.  That's when I realized he saw another dog.  I don't know if it was aggression or playful dominance (dangerous either way, IMO), but I've always felt that he saw the dog as we turned back toward the shelter and either wanted to be aggressive toward it or play with it, but couldn't b/c of the leash (which he always fought to an extent), and turned on me instead.

Hey trust me, the thought of Zeus turning on me when he had that husky on his butt entered my mind...more than once.

He was in a horrid frenzy.  I was actually thanking my lucky stars a few times that I had him on a long lead.

I am very aware of misplaced aggression becoming a possibility when it comes to Zeus....or any dog for that matter.

As far as what could you have done during your encounter? 

What else could you have done is more the question.

When they get lost in that state of mind...they are just lost.

You did all that you could do.

but couldn't b/c of the leash (which he always fought to an extent), and turned on me instead.

Displaced aggression is common in parrots. My sister's Cockatoo hates her husband because he is the "competition" for her "mate" (my sister) and has bitten my her several times. They did decrease her attachment to my sister with behavior & diet modifications, but it is still quite common for parrots and other animals.

Bird people have an expression - "If you can't bite the one you want, bite the one you're with!"

As far as what could you have done during your encounter? 

What else could you have done is more the question.

When they get lost in that state of mind...they are just lost.

That is one incident which pretty much solidified my preference for training dogs with NO LEASHES or collars or harnesses or any of that stuff.  I don't advocate this much because I know how impractical it is and I don't expect people to have the facilities for this, but when I'm doing obedience with the shelter dogs, we go out in a run and the dog is off leash in this area.  We work on things like sitting when approaching people rather than lunging, calling the dogs name and then rewarding it the second it turns its head to you, getting the dog to follow alongside of you and glance at you....the other day I worked with a pit bull puppy for about 20 minutes and she learned to approach me and sit, look at me when I called her name, and follow alongside me when I said "come along".  We also started on her down, but did not name this command.  Now on a leash this little pit bull is a terror, pulling with every muscle in her body because she's so excited and stubborn at the same time.  With dogs like this, I try to use the "cut 'em off at the pass" mentality where we train their "come", "down", "sit", and "heel", before we ever even put on a leash and leave the dog run.  Now I'm not one of those all positive/no corrections people, I've just found that its so much safer, easier, more efficient, and more rewarding for the dog and human when you create the behavior you want before trying to expose the dog to other distractions and other dogs.  I think mild leash reactivity is far more common than we like to think and I believe it's more the owners faults (unintentional) than the dogs "just being a reactive dog" (no excuse).  If people have not yet perfected their timing or their techniques for dealing with aggressive and reactive dogs, I think it's better to do most of the work in the yard where the dog can focus and the handler can reinforce to good behaviors to kingdom come so that when they do leave the yard, there's a better chance the owner can redirect the dog's focus.  I'm not saying doing this will instantly cure the dog of the aggression/reactivity, but it will give the owner a better chance at calling the dog off and regaining control.  I'm still at a loss as far as my bite incident, but perhaps it never would have happened if I'd spend more time with the dog working on basic obedience in the run before taking him out on the walk and finding out the hard way that he is reactive.

I agree.  I believe that leashes and collars,..excerbate the problem.

I am pretty sure that my pulling (what is it called, oppositonal reflex?) Zeus along and the pressure on his neck...did nothing but encourage him to further the frenzy and take it to a whole new level. I am sure that he felt like he was getting a correction and somehow blaming (connecting it) it on the dog. Lunging has to be painful even with a flat buckle collar.  It has to be.

That's why I opted for the harness.

Let's say your afraid, for obvious reasons, of scary men carrying knives. You've reviously encountered these men before, but you couldn't run away because Mom, obviously also frightened, firmly grasped your hand and kept towing you along. In your terror you screamed and yelled and threatened the man, and he didn't kill you as Mom ulled you on by. Ha! you say, I can save me and Mom by threatening loudly, so you do ever more loudly and yes! you and mom never once get killed by these scary men.
So now Mom, whenever she sees you starting to yell at scary men with knives, she now pulls you to the ground and sits on you as the scary men approach. You seriously think this is going to make you LESS afraid of scary men with knives approaching you?????  Maybe you freeze in terror and just hope the scary man won' t notice you pinned helpless on the ground. Mom is pleased.

My brain is a bit muddled right now so I think I've missed the point. Or I hope so. But if anywhere, anyone is talking about handling dogs that are actively aggressing - my advice is, don't. That is, if you don't have a good bit of experience. If your dog is freaking out at something, don't try physically manipulating your dog while it's hyperstimulated unless there is immediate danger to you, the dog, or someone else. Wait until the dog is calmer, then lead the dog off where you can get some control and calm the dog further.

In an emergency, here's what I do. I cannot emphasize enough how dangerous this is, to a novice. The second I notice I dog reaching that danger point (remember, I work with aggressives all the time and am very attuned to their signals), I'll collar the dog between the ears and push the head down flat on the ground, and place my lower leg over his hips, all in one movement. Extensor muscles are something like ten times as weak as retractor muscles, so a flat dog is pretty much a safe dog. This is not a punishment or an alpha roll (which in my opinion is one of the world's most insane things you could do to a dog). It's a safety device. The dog also calms pretty quickly, but it's a position you could potentially hold for a long time to allow for the adrenaline to subside.

I work with very athletic, fast, agile, but LIGHTWEIGHT dogs, so probably if I were a trainer of mastiffs I'd have a different strategy. I have done this to my Maremma once - it was pretty scary but it did work (he was protecting a lamb and I took it away from him).

As far as the future of "red zone" dogs, that's kind of like asking, "How long is a string?" Aggression has a lot of underlying causes. You have to look at each dog anew and let it tell you what it needs. Sometimes you'll like the answer, sometimes you won't. Sometimes it's not fixable. Today a dear little dog went on to the other side, my most promising "student" here, because the aggression he came here for, turned out to be caused by epilepsy. And this weekend he went into convulsions and never came out of them. It's a risk of doing what I do.

Hmm. Brain is scarmbled. I just went back and read the thread that this trhead comes from. [8|]

If a dog starts getting a little reactive vis-a-vis the original description, I become a tree until the reaction stops. There's no point fighting a dog that's lost it's mind. When the dog is thinking again, we can have a conversation once more.

Afterwards, I'll use desensitization - communicating with very low level corrections and verbal encouraging patter. I use "watch me" for companion dogs. I don't use watch me for working dogs because I don't want them looking at me any time they are unsure of something.

Thank you all for your responses.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
By definition, a dog that is "flipping out", or a territorially aggressive dog that you are trying to manage, many times will not be in a frame of mind to listen to the handler and simply do a "down".

Dear Spiritdogs,
Asking the dog to "listen" was not suggested in the original post, and I don't think you are offering it as a solution, so I'm having trouble figuring out the usefulness of that offering.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs
It is quite possible for a handler to quickly exit in a way that simply takes the dog off balance slightly and makes it easier to get him to follow.

Would you be willing to describe what "quickly exit" entails ... getting the dog off balance how? Getting the dog "to follow", how? That would be really helpful, thanks!

ORIGINAL: JM
I agree. I believe that leashes and collars,..excerbate the problem.

I am pretty sure that my pulling (what is it called, oppositonal reflex?) Zeus along and the pressure on his neck...did nothing but encourage him to further the frenzy and take it to a whole new level. I am sure that he felt like he was getting a correction and somehow blaming (connecting it) it on the dog. Lunging has to be painful even with a flat buckle collar. It has to be.

That's why I opted for the harness.

JM, I agree, that's another reason I don't like pulling, whether collar, head harness or body harness.

Liesje, you get my vote for off-leash training. Been doing it for the past month. Glemar's posts on draglines, and recently Brookcove's posts on teaching loose leash walking got me interested in that. Whole new world ... no using the leash to "control" the dog at all ... all about verbal, gestural and subtle relationships! Love it![]

However, city folks need to walk their dogs. So, as long as you've got dogs on leash in the city, you've got leash reactivity.

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl
"If you can't bite the one you want, bite the one you're with!"

LOL! []

Brookcove, [sm=bow2.gif] thank you so much. Well described and cautioned. I really appreciate that. So, if you can't stand still and need to move (say you're in a crosswalk), or if you don't like the violence of the flipping, how could you soften the "make like a tree" response? For example, my cattledog mix can twist and spin like a tornado ... making like a tree can be a really rugged affair! (Granted, she hasn't flipped like a fish in ages, but, hypothetically speaking) []

I would like to add, since it may not be obvious from the original post (and the referenced posts are a lot of reading) the intent of this thread is to answer what to do if and when a dog looses it. Please note that the quote in the original post is step three out of five! Not a singular "solution". Yes, of course we try to prevent the "losing it" in the first place, but it does happen. This is posted in clicker, because one of the other steps is rewards-based. So I'd like to know what the rewards-based solution to this part is.