How to handle dog when it's gotten into "red zone"

The goal when working with a reactive or aggressive dog is to be as proactive as possible. Once a trigger is identified, there should be no opportunity to rehearse the behavior, because you saw it coming and handled it *before* it became a problem.

I have had success dealing with leash aggression this way. Progress with other dogs *only* happened when opportunities to freak out stopped entirely.

When faced with the inevitable slipup, I had great luck with acting incredibly silly and goofy and fun and turning around and running away from the danger and going and doing something fun, like a quick game of tug. The acting very interesting and fun part, paired with the game part made the dragging part not happen.

The key is for both parties (dog and owner) to retain control. Forcing a sit or a down totally stacks the deck against the dog. Expecting to be able to control a dog after it has freaked out totally stacks the deck against the owner.

getting the dog off balance how?

 
Well, I'm not Anne but I've got a great harness with a handle that I can lift her right up like a suitcase if need be. 

quote:getting the dog off balance how? Well, I'm not Anne but I've got a great harness with a handle that I can lift her right up like a suitcase if need be. 

And I am not willowchow, but I did not have any success with this approach. Physical solutions like lifting or correcting or covering the dog's eyes tended to escalate the problem. Non-physical solutions (being proactive and not letting it happen, reacting quickly with weird behavior on my part when it did happen, waiting it out if need be) decreased the overall tension and kept everyone in control.

(not saying that it doesn't work for you, WC, just saying what worked for me)

The book Fiesty Fido has a lot of this information how to make the dog focus and walk past a dog without throwing a fit.  It's a good book.  And, in a perfect world that's what I'd do.
 
But, I like to know I can grab her if need be without hurting myself or her.

Hi.
It's me, you know, the one with the EXTREMELY dog aggressive dog. Yeah, I have one of those dogs that, when she sees another dog, goes from 0 to over the top reactive in like less than a second.
It's gotten better because I have worked with her and I think I might be gaining her trust back by how I handle her.
BUT, let me just say, that getting my dog to "down" when another dog approaches, yeah, OK ,NOT going to happen. EVER.
Nor would I EVER MAKE her "down" when another dog approaches us. No way. If I see the dog coming, I'll take her another direction. If I DO NOT see the dog approach then I'm going to try to put her behind me while I take care of shooing off the other dog. Will that work? I do not know. I haven't had to deal with that yet.

But I train for "watch me" and "leave it" and it's working. It's working better than any of those other methods where I try to use force to show my dog that I'm leader and in charge and she's going to do as I say and I say, "down!". Down is, like JM said, a VERY vulnerable position. Ella wouldn't have it. I'd get the doggy finger. And I know this, because I have tried to get her into a "down" when she wasn't calm enough when we were with my trainer's dog, and I got the doggy finger. She shuts down. She doesn't hear me.

ORIGINAL: JM

Wow!  You know what?  I bet it was misplaced aggression.

I remember reading about that episode....but I didn't know another dog triggered it.

That puts a whole new spin on it.

That's why I say that some of this stuff can be dangerous. 

trying to get the dog down because he was reacting against me, not pulling to get the dog that triggered the episode. 

You really did do your reading! []

Ixas_girl:

By "listen" I meant respond to the handler's request to "down".  Maybe that clarifies it.
"Quickly exit" means back up, go at a right angle, do anything but stay there letting the dog react.  When you use an Easy Walk, or a Gentle Leader, you have a tool that uses leverage to turn the dog's body or head, and generally, where the head goes the body follows.  No one is suggesting that you yank the dog.  You really don't have to.  But, you do need to get the dog to stop making eye contact with the scary thing and come along with you until you get out of range and can get him to settle and respond, and take food or work for a toy, etc.  If you have no behavior to reward, you can't make any progress.  So, you create a situation where the dog gets rewarded for catching up to you, and then for sitting or "watching".

Liesje:
While collars and leashes do exacerbate reactivity, shelter managers need to know if dogs they plan to adopt out are reactive or aggressive.  So, even though you are training without leashes, which is fine, you still need to have the dog evaluated on leash, too, before adoption.

Liesje:
While collars and leashes do exacerbate reactivity, shelter managers need to know if dogs they plan to adopt out are reactive or aggressive. So, even though you are training without leashes, which is fine, you still need to have the dog evaluated on leash, too, before adoption.

Yes, they do temperament tests.  I'm only responsible for getting the dog outside, working off some energy (however I chose) and doing as much basic obedience as the dog will stand for.  If the dogs flip out on the leash, the staff manages that b/c they have trainers and behaviorists work with the dogs.  The volunteers are not trained professionals so we are not encouraged to test the dogs or continue with the slip/choke leads (the only ones we are currently allowed to use) if it's only making the dog worse.  If dogs are slipping through the cracks (as was the case with Wally until he bit me and THEN they paid attention), the staff needs to get with the program b/c at present, the volunteers are doing all we can with these anxious dogs in 90 degree heat.  They limit the tools we can work with (the choke collar), so if I don't like it, I literally have nothing to work with, hence my preference for doing off-leash obedience in the dog runs rather than putting the choke back on a dog I can already tell has no manners and should not be walking past other dogs.  They say they have Gentle Leaders we can use, but no one shows us how and the staff always have annoyed looks when interrupted by volunteers.

To me, the bottom line is that there are many reasons for reactivity/ aggression, and hence a number of ways to approach it. It could be under-socialization or improper socialization, in which case the dog is displaying aggression as a way to deal with a "scary thing", as we've been talking about. I also believe that some of those cases relate to dominance/ hierarchal aggression (or all of the above), in which case the dog is reacting to a competitor, and not a "scary thing". I think understating this difference and our personal limitations will help us achieve better success.

mudpuppy hit the nail right on the head, as did fisher.
 
Quite simply the only time you should be surprised by a reactive dog is the first time.  When I walk my dogs in town I am ALWAYS scanning, always watching and I do NOT "relax" and enjoy the walk.  I am not tense, but I don't just let the walk happen either.  I watch for anything that might trigger a reaction and I see it FIRST before the reactive princess can and a quick turn, or about face takes care of the situation before it can reach the "red zone'  When you are walking three german shepherds at a time in a village thats as tiny as mine, you must have total control and not let anyone even think that your dogs could be a danger to anyone or anything.  Out in the woods is a totally different story, that's for fun and exercise.  But I'm still watching.....after all some of the wildlife can be dangerous and I need to see it before they do in order to request a "leave it", but in town, well, in town we have to be perfect little soldiers and that means I must be on my toes the entire time.
 
I have made a practice of sudden turns, sudden reversals, etc since mine were little because it's part of making sure that they are paying attention to me.  I do want them to enjoy their walk, but, at the same time, this is a chance for them to practice their manners in public and I don't want to be dragged down the street either by a powerful pack of dogs.

Interesting, correct me if I am wrong but there is no mention of Clicker Training in an aggressive dog discussion.

David, *I* do not use a clicker solely because I am a klutz.  I have tried and tried, but find that a marker word works just as well for me and I can't drop my mouth....as easily.

Interesting, correct me if I am wrong but there is no mention of Clicker Training in an aggressive dog discussion.

 
You likely don't DPU, at least not directly. That's because 99% of aggression problems are classical, not operant! You can't click for a limbic system behaviour, you can't click for an emotion, at least not at first. You click for a behaviour. That's because once a dog reaches limbic mode, they are no longer in "thinking" mode - rather they are living on that edge of fight, freeze, and flight. Chances are once they reach that they wouldn't even HEAR you click.
 
However that doesn't mean that we switch over to corrections or applying punishments either. In serious cases of aggression, often very strict management is used. It has to be. You stop putting that dog into situations it will aggress in until you can actively work on the problem. Then you use classical conditioning procedures - counter conditioning, desensitization, to change the underlying emotion towards that stimulus and begin to bring the dog into being able to be operant, able to think.
 
Once the dog becomes operant (by either having used CC&D, or working at a distance the dog does not react at), and not simply limbic, THAT is when you begin using the clicker to teach behaviours you want. Depending on the dog, it might be strict attention, a strong leave it, an incompatible behaviour (when you see another dog, walk behind me and sit), things that can get you by if needed. Or for human problems, some will work on a "Go touch", eye contact (because it's human nature to stare at dogs, and it's a strong stimulus for some dogs). They might teach with a clicker to "go to bed" when visitors arrive upon hearing the doorbell. For dog aggression, they might actually use the clicker to teach calm, play behaviours, such as a play bow. Some have even used the clicker to reinforce calming signals and have had great success!
 
The clicker most certainly DOES have a place in working with aggressive dogs, but the difference is that aggression is not an operant (at least not totally, there are some dogs that do make operant associations, and for a lot of dogs it starts OUT as operant, so if you catch it early you can work on it better - it obviously depends on the dog and the circumstance) thing, so obviously you can't just jump right in and use operant conditioning!
 
That's of course a very generalized explanation, but just to explain that you are often working with dogs that have long left operant mode when working with aggressive dogs. Which is why management is put in place, to allow the dog to be able to continue to think, and if something goes wrong, at least to keep the dog safe, then you work the classical work (with some operant stuff in between, such as the "go to bed" upon hearing the doorbell), and then you work operantly.

I think this is crucial in some cases.  It is in mine. 

Zeus' reactivity is centered on  the loose dog.  He is always large. He is male and unaltered.  He has been marking terroritory.....and he is going to challenge Zeus for being there.

Evidently dogs can tell all sorts of things about another dog by smelling urine.   So, if we are in an area and Zeus starts acting nervous, I know that he is detecting something urine wise. (he is a sniffer)  And I get him out of there.

Zeus is no longer capable of taking on a challenge ..   So in this case, I do believe it to be more fear than aggression.  A survival instinct, I think...as he knows that he can be physically hurt, or even killed if the dog is aggressive (younger and stronger) enough.

 And who knows, maybe they can even tell how aggressive a dog is capable of becoming by smelling urine.

To me this makes total sense, because I have had loose dogs walk right up to Zeus and he pays them no mind whatsoever.  Has he already detected urine wise that they aren't a threat?  I don't know.  But I do operate under this assumption.

Many times, due to "listening" to Zeus, I have managed to avoid major conflict.

I also think this helped to establish trust.

If my dog goes beserk, I have to trust there is a reason for it and he is trying to tell me something....

One crucial thing that I learned when dealing with the "trust" issue with me and my dog....it goes both ways.

I couldn't gain his trust without first trusting him.

ORIGINAL: TinaK

To me, the bottom line is that there are many reasons for reactivity/ aggression, and hence a number of ways to approach it. It could be under-socialization or improper socialization, in which case the dog is displaying aggression as a way to deal with a "scary thing", as we've been talking about. I also believe that some of those cases relate to dominance/ hierarchal aggression (or all of the above), in which case the dog is reacting to a competitor, and not a "scary thing". I think understating this difference and our personal limitations will help us achieve better success.

people are confusing Management with Training. A dog who is in a "red zone" reactive frenzy CANNOT be trained while in that frenzy. All  you can do is get out of there, hopefully with as little damage to you and the dog as possible. It is true that dragging the dog away will not teach the dog anything. It's the desensitization program you are engaging in as soon as you realize you have a potential problem, training while the dog is NOT in a frenzy (you certainly can use a clicker during this training, click for calm behavior) that will cure the dog. And a big part of that desensitization training program is trying very hard to not trigger a reactive "red zone" frenzy on the part of the dog by management of the environment.
 
Many people never move beyond management because they can't figure out the difference between being proactive and being reactive to the dog's behavior. Clickers are great for proactive training, for example, proactive training to make sure resource guarding never happens. If your dog is snarling and growling at you as you approach the food bowl, this is time for Managment, not Training, and now you know you need to do some Training about this problem tomorrow, after you've Managed the Crisis Now.
 
Your puppy bolts out the door-- this is a Management situation, you have to save the puppy NOW, and now you know that tomorrow you need to get out your clicker and work harder on Training the Puppy to wait at doors.

The last posts by Kim_MacMillan, JM, and Mudpuppy has really hit home with me in dealing with my foster dogs issues.  Whatever I am doing, I think I mostly do it right because I have been successful in changing behavior.  Whether it be Management or Training using Classical, Operant, or any other learning theory.  I like JM post because she touched on unconditioned versus conditioned responses that create behavior problems.  I do know I need to start being conscious of the learning theories I am using and which should be used to be most effective.
 
The title of this thread references “red zone” which I believe is a CM term for extreme imbalance and connected with aggression.  Extreme imbalance creates extreme behavior that is not always aggressive in nature, such as a dog in panic mode.  Am I ok in applying the contents of the posts to this transference.
 
I am still not clear as to why it is wrong to make a correction as a stand alone action once the behavior starts.  Mudpuppy distinguishes between Management and Training and I see this action as Managing.